First drive in an 812

Agree with your thoughtful insight.

My point is it's better to learn the nuances of the Manettino settings and what they do, how they affect car. etc. in a less intimidating, less powerful car. The 458 has been a great stepping stone for me (as well as a track and intensive HPDE instruction) to advance my knowledge of the car, and how to handle it under a variety of circumstances. Of course it can bite, but nothing like the 812.

Having just taken delivery of the F8, it's clearly a more powerful car, but I feel more confident stretching its legs, so to speak. The dynamics are a bit different, but not altogether surprising.

When I move to a front engine 812 (or replacement), there'll be a learning curve, but I'll come armed with knowledge and experience from the mid engines. I wouldn't simply watch that video and 'try that at home' without fairly extensive experience. That'd be a recipe for disaster (regardless of 'mode').

And to your point, loading the car and trail braking is where its at to make up time in the corners, but it comes later up the learning curve, understeer being easier to deal with than 'getting loose' in a turn.

 

Although mid front has the weight between the front and rear axles like a mid rear the mid front has a longer distance from the center of the car as well as the transmission being at the rear axle. They may balance the weight distribution to 50/50 front and rear but the polar moment of inertia is higher
ie the pendulum arms are longer so it takes a slightly longer to bring the distant weight around. The mid rear has both the engine and transmission essentially over each other and both are closer to the center of the car- shorter pendulum- quicker swings.
Of the two the mid rear is the most balanced whereas the mid front can bite you if you enter a curve too hot and go from neutral/under steer to oversteer as those long pendulum weights finally swing around and catch you off guard.
For rear end cars like Porsche 911 the same can happen but with more force as the lever arm is longer and Porsche has dealt with it by putting more tire in the back for more rear traction to keep that weight out back in check.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Care to elaborate? Their weight distribution is similar.

 

See my post #77
The weight distribution is very dissimilar. The front mid is 50/50 just like a rear mid but the rear mid weight is more centralized towards the middle of the car whereas the front mid weight is distributed further out from the center,still 50/50 but closer to the axles and further from the center. Using throttle and brakes you can differentially load up the rear or front respectively in both cars it just tends to get exaggerated more in the front mid cars. It’s a different style of driving and can be just as exciting (or more so if you are not careful)


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

I am not an engineer, but as I understand things, the front-mid engined Ferraris have about 2-3 percent more front bias compared to the rear-mid engine ones. They are heavier and also have a longer wheelbase and higher CoG though. Now, is that affecting polar moment of inertia that much? My theoretical knowledge runs out at this point.

 

Polar moment of inertia is the integral of mass times distance from axis of rotation. So mass farther from that axis, like having the engine forward and the transmission to the rear (front mid engine car like the 812), will give a larger PMOI than the same masses closer to the axis of rotation (rear mid engine car like a 488 or F8). CoG height won't factor in, but more mass at a given distance from the AoR will increase PMOI.

 

Well said. There are really 3 areas of dense mass in a car- engine, transmission, passenger(s). Where these centers of mass are placed in a car(all else being equal-body,frame,axles etc) will affect the PMOI. Everything ultimately affects the PMOI including the frame weight and it distribution etc which why McLaren went with carbon fiber etc.
A higher center of gravity affects handling as well particularly how much a car will want to lean and load up tires. That is why lower is better and sport EV manufacturers place the heaviest item in their cars, the batteries, as low and central as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

My observation is only based on driving experience and feeling, and not on a technical analysis.
This being said, various sources report a weight distribution about 42% front / 58% rear for the rear-mid engine and 47% front / 53% rear for the 812.

 

Ah, the difference between an amateur and professional driver- the pro can walk away from an accident without a care in the world.......

I nearly put it in the wall my first time at COTA- lost the rear at Turn 10 (a known issue with the 812), had an "0h **** I'm driving a half million dollar car I need to get off throttle moment" instead of "Yeehaaa" stayed in it and enjoyed the drift.

June '20 second time at COTA with the car. I've since dropped 4 sec since these runs and not taken my foot off the loud pedal..

991.1 GT3 RS on slicks



Pair of GT3s with McLaren something-or-other holding them up (they all look alike to me). And yes I did have a flashback passing the second GT3 on the inside of T10.

 

Ya’ll come down to Road Atlanta, where most of the curbs aren’t nearly as friendly and T12 offers no forgiveness whatsoever. Getting caught in traffic teaches discipline to run your line not follow the leader (easier said than done).

Drifting in an 812 on a track would be a head trip (one that I’d want to build up to). Sometimes lifting is the worst thing you can do, but I don’t know your exact circumstances.

I blew past the braking zone in T10 at RA, luckily it didn’t cost me (except some gravel).

Track looks awesome,btw. Ozark Int’l is high on my list…………

 

I forgot....that was the first and only time I took all the nannies off. It was my first time at COTA with the 812 and only the second time on track with the car. One other gentleman there had an 812 and told me "oh it's fine without the nannies....." Of course it is fine when you are doing parade laps on Ferrari days, but not when you're running 20 sec a lap faster playing around with real track cars.

I don't know what it is at T10, I thought it was because I hit the inside curb, but Dan at Finspeed Wheels told me it's something about the car that doesn't like T10. You're accelerating through 110 mph as you flick to the left off camber, but I lost rear traction and then stared at the inside wall......... Needless to say I never turned the nannies off again!

Here's a vid following that McLaren. U can tell at the time I drove the 812 like my GT3RS: trail braking more shallow turn ins at T11 & T20, which bogs down the 812 in 2nd, instead of old-schooling it going wider and getting a running start (fixing that & lowering the car with Novitec springs is where I found the 4 sec).

 

812 Tdf GTS are slow cars in comparison to Porsche Ferrari Mac rear engine - forget Ferrari Fiarano times it's a slow car on track.
812 is far better than the TDF as far as driving aggressive but it's still a porky GT and anyone

One is a GT car the other is a sports car.
812 improved F12 but it's far from a Pista on Fiaroano as Ferrari states.
V12 is for sound

Looks like you had fun!
Took 16M to a Ferrari event Road Amer - loaded it into trailer and rear tire blew. Saw more than a few guys total their car that weekend.
Came home bought a Challenge Car - 2nd track event was COTA what a track, Friend did some damage got charged 20k from the track and car was 40k.
Slicks HANS Roll Bar mechanic... at some point it's nice to know you will be alive after the weekend!

 

Nice driving! And sounds epic!!
I drove F12s on COTA as part of Corsa Pilota. What a blast!

 

I wouldn't dismiss the 812 so quickly.
I suspect it's because it requires a specific way of driving (compared to the common rear mid-engined cars) that many can't imagine it's really a sports car; of course the weight penalty cannot be ignored but driven properly I'm sure it can give less powerful rear mid-engined cars a run for their money.

 

Of course the elephant in the room is these are street cars on a track. The safety factor just isn’t there with a three point harness. They sell HANS devices as added PP, but it’s no substitute for the real deal. However, you’re not obliged to wring it out on every straight section.

One of the above posters mentioned the track owners came after someone for damages to the track. I also witnessed that at Watkins Glen in May (after an incident at the infamous Bus Stop).

You can have a blast at these tracks without trying to set speed records while greatly improving your driving skills, and use a lot more of your car’s potential in a controlled environment. You don’t need to be the fastest (or slowest) person out there.

Ferraris are really lively cars on the track and don’t need to be driven to 100% to enjoy what they offer.

 

Well said. No one at the track is scouting talent for LeMans...

 

Had 612 / FF and GTS on order - not dismissing just saying when drivers want to play on track a V12 is far from a rear engine counter part in this case Pista.
Same goes for street - but you aren't pushing the brakes and tires nearly as hard. Took my FF and 612 on track but it was just for fun at maybe 7/10th's.
Everyone can do as they wish - it's their ride but 812 vs Pista are not one in the same - go watch a video of the two running on track. Ferrari claims them the same - they are not even close.

Fiorano 1:21.50 1:21.50
Zhejiang Circuit 1:42.31 1:31.55
Nürburgring Nordschleife 7:27.48 7:00.03
Anglesey Coastal 1:13.60 1:10.80
Vairano Handling Course 1:12.18 1:09.43
Autocar Dry Handling Track 1:09.30 1:05.30

 

Everyone gets worked up about track times of street cars, but I take them with a grain of salt as they are uncontrolled experiments on different days, with perhaps different drivers, track conditions, etc.

Not seeing how Ferrari’s claim could pan out.

Lamborghini rented out the Nurburgring for their STO demonstration, but soon after there were sneak pics showing them using ‘benzina speciale’ and lighter body parts on the windshield and wing,

Interestingly, they never posted the track time. leading to speculation about its performance, or lack thereof.

It’s plenty for my limited skills.

 

I have a lot of fun driving these cars. I get nowhere to their potential but still have a lot of fun. I went to the baby beginner Ferrari driving school once. The 488 was easier for me to drive faster (for me) than the 812. Both were a blast and I’m a slow/poor driver by comparison to all of you. So I’ll just keep puttering around with a grin on my face!

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Yeah never understood the obession with driving exotics on the track. I mean it's fun if you're renting but I don't take my stuff out, too many variables plus wear and tear. If one was serious about track work, you get a dedicated track toy that will embarrass street cars and at a fraction of the purchase and running costs

 

That’s why I bought a GTR RS.

Driving the 812 at pretty much the limits means going through a set of tires and a set of brake pads per weekend. The RS can do a couple-three weekends on tires and a dozen weekends on pads.

And yes, 176 mph on the back straight pretty much exceeds the safety of a 3 point seat belt (hybrid) Hans or not.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

I'd say it's pretty obvious

We own these incredible cars but you know we can't open them to 9/10ths what they can do in public roads, at least not more than a quick Italian tune up- so taking them on track having fun exploring the car's capabilities without putting yourself or others at risk

& Unless you're tracking weekly, why not get an incredible supercar you drive to work and then occasionally to the track and back? Saves money time hassle needing to deal with upkeep on two cars.. I don't think most people are worried about embarrassing street cars for personal lap times

 

I see your point but why do you really care? Its not like you're actually racing. Its just play and it doesn't matter. The capability of the vehicle really only matters if you line up and put your life on the line for a worthless piece of plastic or maybe a little win money or cheaper parts from a sponsor. Otherwise they are all just play things with license plates.

 

7000 posts and you ask why I care so much ... I love cars and car people most of the time.

 

Couple of weeks ago at Atlanta, my instructor took me out for a ‘red’ session in his 2022 GT3. Car was fitted with racing seats, 4 point harness, fire extinguisher, but no cage or fuel cell - so about halfway to a track car. Needless to say I was impressed all around

I’d say that experience was about as much as I’d like to take while tracking. Using the car, yet not truly racing.

I’m going to take the STO out at some point, if even for a session or two late in the day when the track empties out.

You simply cannot duplicate the complexities of a track (and with an instructor) on a public road.

I’ve driven the 812 at Corso Pilota, and it seemed to me to be more advertising on Ferrari’s part as opposed to demonstrating its acumen as a track beast.

Of course, like everything else they do, it was highly effective, Somewhere lies one in my future