Thanks, I actually meant recent video of the car 'on the street', that track video is like the 812C, makes a lot more sound coming at you than when it is driving away...
That would be better than what I see. All I see is a 612. That generation of V12s I find absolutely ugly as hell. I had FoSA return my deposit once I saw the 599. Speccd a Vanquish S, kept my 360 spider & waited it out for the F12. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Not sure I agree with these sound conclusions. Old cars have need of an aftermarket exhaust too. Our F512M sounds incredible with a Tubi, like nothing else. But with stock exhaust it is very very quiet and almost uninteresting. We have a non-gpf Superfast and a gpf-equipped GTS. The GTS is a little quieter but sounds different and more emotive/cultured than the Superfast. Others may vary but we are not comparing 10/10 to 7/10, we are comparing 9.95 to 9.96. Both cars sound life-affirmingly brilliant. The video at Goodwood is unrealistic. Cars sound very different surrounded by hay bales and trees. I might suggest that is not the most common environment for most owners. Also, comparing road cars to race cars is a bit fatuous. The SF90 sounds nothing like its pull away in that video 99% of the time. Compared with other turbo V8s it’s sound is pretty good and I have a lot of seat time in both SF90 and other turbo cars from Ferrari, McLaren, Aston and Porsche. Internet videos can be so misleading. Here is a short video of a TDF filmed at Fiorano at distance, followed by an equally poor video of a Competizione (ignore the first few seconds, the rest is at distance). Interesting to note the TDF suffers from tyre squeal louder than its engine too, so best not make that a new KPI for comparing cars - we wouldn’t want to get into criticising-the-TDF territory would we? Other, better quality videos of the Comp on Fiorano show it to have a very different, harder-edged sound compared with the TDF and much more aggressive down-changes. Seems a fools-errand to me criticising the Comp, which will be a crazy-good car and a Ferrari legend in prospect. 599 GTO, F12 TDF, 812 Competizione? How could we criticise any of them? Except to say the best sounding of the three is clearly the GTO
The point of the Goodwood videos I posted is that the cars were all filmed at the same time, same atmospheric conditions, same camera, and from two different angles, the conclusions the results of government regulations are undeniable. Watch for the F167 to be next-level-quiet in its exhaust...that is my conclusion... as a lower level of sound (dba) is required for all new models first delivered (in EU) from 2024. Maybe Ferrari will receive a derogation from such 'noise regulations'...one can hope! https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/07/23/video-rules-and-regulations-are-making-cars-more-boring/
There will come a day when people will turn back and look at cars like the tdf, 599gto, speciale , even a regular f12 and 812 and realise how special and unique these were. Today most people see those cars as “easy” to buy with more or less money often overlooking what these are - the end of an era of automotive perfection ,art and poetry. “Easy” to buy with more or less money? Not for so long..
to each there opinion and i respect thats. however anyone who has drived pre GPF and GPF fitted Ferrari will tell you the difference is certainly not 9.95 vs 9.96. 812SF actually sounds better all around compared to a GTS. same goes with 488 vs F8
Don't get me wrong the engine in the 812c has got to be the best of all time in a road car. Certainly the best in the fabled F140 line although not the best looking (we know which one that is ). You can hear the goodness trying to get out. Unfortunately it is screened, scrubbed, and plugged up. If they did the GTO treatment on it (but this time using the 6:1 started in the F12b) it would be beyond magnificent. But it is undeniably neutered to meet all kinds of crazy rules that aren't even required here in the US. If this is of any question just compare it to the cars that will be fitted with an aftermarket solution and not the race cats or cat delete extreme system. It won't be nearly as good as what Ferrari could do but it will embarrass the stock version with that 6.5l GPF choke.
Peak Ferrari V12 is the pre GPF 6.5 as fitted to early 812SF in my admittedly extremely biased opinion.
Well, we own both so I’m not commenting without experience. Superfast is more aggressive but GTS is more interesting and cultured. I can’t imagine anyone driving up an alpine pass (as I have done many times) in a GTS and saying, “this is a bad exhaust noise”. It is absolutely wonderful and overall I prefer it to our Superfast. Superfast is also beyond brilliant for noise but when you own and drive these cars, lots of blaring noise is not always better. The GTS noise gets me in the mood for driving just a little more than the Superfast. Put it this way, If a Speciale is 10 for noise, GTS is 15. It is far far better. We have Speciale too. Quality of noise counts over quantity every time for me and you can still have quality noise with GPF. Same goes for 991.2 Weissach GT3 RS and 992 GT3 which everyone worried about but needn’t have.
Well, I also own both, pre GPF SF and a GTS. I also agree that SF is more aggressive and the GTS is more cultured. I enjoy driving both, but for different occasions. If I am going out for dinner with wife, then I take the GTS. If I am going out for a bit of fun (by myself, with wife beside me would not be able to listen to engine) then it is the SF. I also agree that anyone driving up an alpine pass with a GTS would say "this is a bad exhaust noise". That said, driving up the alpine pass with a pre gpf SF, they would definitely say "this is a better exhaust noise". if a Speciale is a 10, a GTS a 15, then the pre gpf SF is a 20. I also understand that people enjoy different things and of course sounds. i also agree "beauty is in the "ear" of the beholder". As JO said in previous post pre gpf V12 6.5 liter is the peak of Ferrari engines. It has both Quality and Quantity especially at high revs which makes it screams like an F! car and excites certain parts of my body. Again, people enjoy different things in life and quite frankly being lucky to own both and enjoy both is a dream I though I would never be able to achieve. In regards to certain parts of my body being excited, i was referring to my heart, keep your minds out of the gutter people LOL
With regards to the 812 replacement - what do we think are the odds? Will it remain from mid engine? Naturally aspirated V12 with / without some form of assistance in which case it’d mean enhancing the current 6.5L or enlarging it?
That is a great question, based on the Varryx video of the test mule at Fiorano about 3 months ago, the engine sounds similar to that of the 812c ... And, judging by the length of the hood and wheelbase, it does appear to remain 'mid front' placement. And, thus far, the test mules have not shown any 'electrification' warning labels. And, from the details elsewhere on this thread it appears it will not be hybrid, but 'iconic' V12 I do not believe they will increase the engine size, that engine platform appears to be at its maximum, and they did publicly fire their lead V12 architect of many years (Michael Leiters) so I do not believe there will be any significant changes. Maybe we will have a new idea when the details of the FUV's V12 engine are revealed in about 2 months time...
True it’d be interesting to see what sort of V12 is in the FUV…although the purosangue with that V12 could be in production for a short period of time until say end of 2024 where v8/hybrids are the only available options on the FUV, ie maybe Ferrari decided to milk the current V12 a little longer in the FUV until the 812 replacement comesin with a brand new engine thistime
I believe the FUV will be a regular production model for at least 3 years, maybe more. And the subsequent FUV will be only all-electric (no hybrid options), which I believe is not going to "make" its 2025 reveal based on the complete lack of mules, I believe it will be delayed at least 1 maybe 2 years and that will result in the V12 production being extended....that is all my speculation. From what I understand the engine for the F167 (812 successor) is completed, I am not entirely certain why there is a continuing delay in its reveal (current rumor is end of 2023). Based on the one Fiorano track video the engine sounds to be very much the same as the 812c which I presume will be the same engine in the FUV...I think Ferrari is no longer putting any effort (other than for emissions and noise) into V12 research+development, hence the chart label "iconic" with a "flat line"
Well is the engine in both the FUV and 812 replacement are the same engines as the the in the 812c that would be good news on one hand but disappointing on the other hand as it would mean the 812c isn’t that special other than for its production number and design. Its predecessors the tdf and 599gto had specific / unique engines which differed from the production series that followed
That is true, but I think Ferrari has significantly changed, for instance, from what I recall, the 812c is fitted with the same tachometer as the standard 812, so it does not show the new rev limit of 9500...yes, the changed the "9" to not be red, but the redzone starts at 9000, so, a little detail like that, Ferrari did not care to do it right... I could see the FUV and F167 both having a lower redline, maybe 9250. They probably did not care because the 812c/cA are the final cars to use an analog tachometer (SP3 uses digital, the first V12 to use digital rev counter, next will be the FUV and then F167). Do recall the SP3 also uses the same engine as the 812c and the SP3 already displaced the power of the 812c before the first customer delivery! Same redline (9500) but more power (829HP vs 819HP)! And, do recall, Michael Leiters was fired 1 month after the SP3 reveal...so, I presume the V12 is now on "life support" and there will be little if any improvements. The next hypercar was confirmed by the factory to be V8+turbo+hybrid (not a V12)... I predict the 6.5L F140 engine is the last V12 Ferrari will ever build and from this time forward, little improvement in power, if any...the FUV will probably be 819 like the 812c or maybe a little less, and likely same power for the F167.
That means it probably just has a few years left and Ferrari will probably try to extract value from it by using that same engine in multi million rebodied one off / limited / icona series. At the end of the day the biggest jump in that V12 development was from the 599 to the F12 and frankly the jump from f12 to tdf was also big. The 812 although with a slightly larger displacement is imo a more civilised version of the tdf and Ferrari haven’t done a big jump between the tdf and the 812c whether it’s be weight reduction and/or engine performance while the gap from 599gto to tdf was monumental. Interesting you mention the next hypercar will be v8 hybrid the enzo therefore becoming the last na v12 hypercar which explains why it jumped so much in value. There’s one enzo for sale in the UK at about £3mm even though it’s LHD with 12,000 miles. A similar la ferrari would be advertised in the low £2mm or around £2mm which shows the enzo is now much more sought after than a LaFerrari. My perfect 3 car garage? This is it : Enzo, TdF, 458 Speciale
To fully understand this car, you have to understand the context. When Vigna arrives, he does not want this car and above all does not want to spend money on it. He wants to make an 812 phase 3, like the 458 phase 3 (F 8). But 167 is already ready, and luckily for us !!! Vigna thinks that all customers expect hybrid and electric cars, and that is what he is leading Ferrari towards, convinced that he is right. Imagine the gap with the reality of the Ferrari myth ! It's as if a new CEO at Patek was planning to manufacture only liquid crystal watches, being certain that customers are waiting for it... Do not worry about having digital screens instead of beautiful tachometers in this context... The reality is that they have no idea what the fundamentals of a Ferrari should be !
What is the difference between 812 phase 2/3 or the already approved 812 replacement under the assumption above that the current 6.5 v12 will continue to be used?
Why is that wrong? The red area should start before the limiter, otherwise there is no point in having a red area. Its purpose is to visually inform the driver that the rev limit is approaching and he should be ready to upshift. A red area right starting at the limiter defies its purpose. The ;aw of diminishing returns. Still, the power jump between the F12 and the tdf is similar to that between the 812 and the Competizione. The sales numbers seem to disprove your theories. Also, why should Ferrari get stuck in the past? A screen is configurable to the driver's liking and gives a lot more information than dials do. Retro is not Ferrari's thing. There are other brands stuck in the past for that (a Morgan perhaps)...
