Aston Martin F1

I'm guilty! I just remember Amon saying every time he drove the 312B it broke and he could not do another season like that - and then Ickx almost won the championship in 70 with that car!

 

I hope Nyck de Vries gets a F1 drive soon.

I was seeing him as a potential replacement for Hamilton in 2024 though.

A drive at Aston in 2023 could be the first step up the ladder.

 

I disagree. Every team - each one he's left has been left worse off than when he got there. McLaren he 2nd go may be the exception. Alonso needs to be the next retiree and race in WEC or IMSA or Indy.

 

I think if you are truly going to support the team - you have to see it for all its faults - and there are a lot. BUT that is what makes it so enthralling of a story... its easy to be a fan when they win, its much harder to be behind them when they are not winning. If you have followed Ferrari for any lenght of time, you are used to the "well get them next year" thought process. "now where's my pasta and wine?"

 

Mike Hawthorn died in a road traffic accident driving a Jaguar MKII, just a few months after retiring.

Ludovico Scarfiotti (a scion of the Agnelli family !) and Michael Parkes also left under a cloud.

 

Hawthorne retired as World Champion with Ferrari and had a medical condition where he would not see the end of the following year regardless of his road accident. In fact his widow (the lady he was engaged to at the time and who I got to know many years back when I stayed at her home) told me that Hawthorne likely passed out at the wheel as the would often faint without explanation in his final months.

But I digress...

 

I'll be sorry to see him go. An outstanding driver in his day, and a deserving champion. The Ferrari episode has lots of blame to go around, and the team let him down at least as much as he let the team down. I think it's more a case of another great driver being chewed up and spat out by the Ferrari machine. To be fair Rouge Cow are just as, if not more guilty, than Ferrari in recent years of playing the favorites and creating a toxic non supportive environment (I haven't forgiven them for JEV who I think was a better driver than given credit for). He played RB into being his team for a time, but failed to do the same at Ferrari. I don't think he deserves much of the criticism he gets for his drives these days, just as I don't think the people who insist on constantly putting Stroll down as just a pay to play driver are giving him the credit he deserves. Sure Stroll is never going to be WDC material, but on his day he can pull out some very very strong drives and is certainly just as worthy of a seat in F1 as many others are or have been in the past.

Now let's work on the rumor of Herta to AMR to try and make it happen. Herta is certainly an outstanding driver who deserves a shot at F1, and while AMR aren't a top team, and are having a bad year this year, the core team has traditionally overachieved for their size, going all the way back to when it was Jordan. Starting in a non competitive car maybe a better way in for a guy who spent most of his formative racing years in America and isn't necessarily used to the tracks or more European style of racing that F1 brings.

 

Sorry Tom, a few things, Hawthorne didn't die as a Ferrari driver, he retired and died in a car accident driving his Jaguar, and Alesi didn't left ig good terms, he had a violent discussion with Jean Todt when he knew Michael was coming...but then all was laid to rest.

 

beat me to it

 

He left when the teams were not capable of winning. Even Ferrari after 5 years he gave. Again how long should he wait lol. He gave 5 years of his life. 1 team. Thats dedication. Sorry.

 

+1

 

Yet you are myopic about that driver crusher that Red Bull is.

 

again - I was pulling from memory -but yes Hawthorne did retire... forgot that... I thought he was doing sports cars with Ferrari / Ronnie Hoare before he died..?

 

right - forgot about all that... Ferrari is such an easy place to drive!

 

Ludovivo left because his family who were friends with Enzo asked him to not give a car to Scarfiotti anymore, because they wanted him to stop racing. Against his will, Enzo told him he could no longer drive for him.Ludovico left and signed with Porsche, Ferrari rival in hillclimb, and got himself killed while driving the porsche, he hit a rock with his head that was extending from the edge of the road, after a blind corner.

 

Parkes could have stayed at Ferrari also if he had wanted, but only as an engineer. Ferrari thought he was too much crash prone and was more useful outside of the car. Everybody told Parkes that he was idiot for refusing the deal Ferrari offered, but still he wanted to drive.

As Derek Bell said, those who complain so much about Ferrari held a personal grudge against him, but his way of doing things was not much different than any other team manager. Ask anybody who had worked with Ron Dennis and probably would say he was worse.

 

Or Frank Williams, Colin Chapman or Flavio Briatore.

 

John Surtees once said that, after he started his own Formula One team and experienced drivers' management, he saw his years at Ferrari and the circumstances of his departure of the team under a very different light.

Rgds

 

I don't think so. There are 2 facets at the Red Bull organisation.
One is a very efficient racing team totally focussed on winning titles, and using all the means at their disposal. .
The other is the ruthless methods they use, notably drivers management.
I have commented on both.

 

You said that Ferrari wasted Vettel´s career. That´s BS: he already was screwed at Red Bull. Actually I doubt Red Bull would have been so patient as Ferrari was, but anyway, had he stayed at Red Bull he wouldn´t had won anyway as they didn´t produce a winning car until 2020.

And yet, another time you repeat the "Ferrari is a career wrecker". Any team can be a career wrecker if you don´t win with them: McLaren was a career wrecker for Alonso (twice!), Williams for many people and Red Bull for all their drivers but three.

 

+1 spot on.

 

It's fair to say that moving to Ferrari was only a mitigated success for Alonso and Vettel. They both were WDC already, so knew how to win. Yes, they won some races with the Scuderia, but not the title(s) they were reasonably hoping for. Same happened to Prost, for example.

Over the years, many drivers had high expectations going to Ferrari, in view of its impressive records. Some ended disappointed, finding a very dysfunctional team; sometimes the cars were not performing , or the organisation was lacking in focus, other times the Scuderia was torn by internal strife, political games, etc ... Many left bare handed, never fulfilling their ambition at the Scuderia. The list is long.

Red Bull tends to grow its drivers from its nursery of talents through lower formulas, before promoting them to Red Bull Racing, if they are good enough. Red Bull offers a staircase to reach F1, under Marko's administration. It's a different approach to selecting drivers, although it's also undeniably ruthless. Many went through the mill and were mercilessly demoted or rejected. But those left behind, in most case never had a career to speak of before they were part of the organisation.

 

Just watched the Davide Cironi interview of Forghieri on YT where Forghieri said just that.

 

Those onterviews by Davide are priceless, the ones with Tomaini, Materazzi also amazing.
To me, he's the best.

 

Difficult to judge him right now.
Seems to be rated pretty high in Mercedes.