Here Comes a New Record

Honestly, there are multiple people posting that are very full of themselves and their comments about fraud and scams and such.... you have no idea what you are posting about and all of your allegations are based on no support other than wild ass theories and such.

For you to make such claims, how about something that supports your view? Something like a bit of factual support?

 

You are posting this like you have specific information to support your claim. You then post again stating that your theory is correct because you agree with it. Gosh darn it, I can't believe you support your own theory that you have convinced yourself of.... even with nothing to prop up your view

 

For all others and those who are actually interested in comments regarding the Dino that is subject to this specific thread (07826).

I have been posting (although I agree those posts sounded a bit crazy) about consistent value changes seen in private transactions. Those threads are easily searched.

This BaT Dino has closed. It sold for $858k with fees and such, not including registration/taxes/etc.... as those shouldn't really be factored in.

There are several comments posted that have no basis in fact, and are speculation. Why don't we all look at actual facts? None of this is private information and can be noted if you follow all the comments on BaT and here. Sure, you can question whether they are true or not, but question the comments, not the entirety of the transaction.

This was the first Chairs and Flairs, restored to this condition, to be auctioned publicly in some time. The result is high, but not surprising for what is the "supposed" unicorn of all Dino's.

Comments are made about shill bids. There is nothing that supports this. Multiple people viewed the car personally and bid. Multiple people had or did some type of inspection of the car. Time frames allowed for this, unlike the more typical auction style.

The bid that came in at $850k has been speculated as "fraud" - once again with no proof. It doesn't take much effort at all to google that user name. There are multiple threads here on F-Chat about that bidder and his activity over years. If you have proof, where is it? Everything I have found shows the exact opposite.

The winning bidder has completed the transaction.

MULTIPLE other Dino sales have indicated this is the movement of the market and the result, although higher than what I would have guessed, it isn't really a HUGE surprise. I get you might not agree with a price/value/market, but alleging fraud and deception should at least require one back up their statements. I would like to see your support for these statements.

 

I have actually spoken on a couple of occasion now to the New owner of the chairs and flairs Dino, he is a legit buyer and he is very excited to receive his new toy next week.

 

I can speak to Zillow, because I am in Real Estates. I am a home builder and have a Brokers License. Zillow steals information from other sources and posts as their own. That does not create a market, but uses information that changes and they do not alter it unless you pay them to do so. That is not relevant in any way to the topic at hand.

I don't deny that there are people who do shady things. But if you want to say that applies here, you have to look at all angles. NONE of the angles apply here. LITERALLY NONE.

I do not have any interest in this transaction, not MANY others that have taken place. I do not have a dog in the hunt, other than I happen to own a Dino that is not for sale.

For your theory to hold, multiple sellers, multiple buyers, and many cars would all have to be a part of the conspiring group to get to this point. An ultimate, multi-part Ponzi Scheme. Sure, is it possible? I guess. Likely?

When you start making allegations of fraud and conspiracy, I would be careful in doing that. You have broadly cast a net and are pointing lots of fingers and have not provided anything to support it

 

WOW!!! So you weren't part of some giant conspiracy to create a fake Dino market all those years ago just so we could watch an Auction on Bring a Trailer last week?

No WAY!! Say it isn't so!

Only kidding, the quality of the work (although the peanut gallery can nit-pick) speaks to the price realized. I may have done a few things different, but ultimately the client drives those decisions. You guys did a phenomenal job and it shows.

 

Shawn, this is not the potential 'unicorn' of Dinoland. It only happened to jump the 'accepted' charts.
If I had the funds, I would not buy this car at any price, as not my 'kind of Dino'. You know, blondes, brunettes, reds?
Shock, awe, amazement? Definitely.
Jon's cars have increased in value exponentially, if this is the 'yardstick'.

I think the allegations of conspiracy / fraud / fowl play / shill bids, were not generally made about this specific car,
albeit, there was doubt. Why? I do not have, nor pretend to have an answer.

It just happened to be the 'patsy' at hand, so yes, it was just that. No one has proof, yet in other instances (cars, works of art, real estate), no dis-proof either.
This sort of event may occasionally happen in all sorts of BaT / Hemmings / Bonhams et al. , but not necessarily the truth.

Just go out and pick another auction, with another car that might meet your fancy, and whammo here we go again.
This Dino has the misfortune / fortune, to be 'nitpicked' by the largest group of Dino connoisseurs, thus the dichotomy.
We all agreed to disagree / agree, and all had incredibly varied opinions. The PG, never mind.

Value? Beats me. Was it really worth the admission price? The buyer thought so, thus everyone is happy, buyer and seller.
Well, the seller might have wished for the magic 1M+, clearly a feather in cap. Did not happen. Just imagine, 1K more might have taken it / not.
I would not pay that amount, and not sell mine for same.

Funny story, a 'no reserve' Dino goes for a huge amount, and a 'reserve' C4, does not meet reserve at an average offer. It was green though
Auctions are just that, a paddle, a credit card, or a bank letter.

The only, and truly bulletproof sale, is between 2 parties, with a PPI, and both satisfied with the outcome of the negotiation.
In this case, you might overpay, or underpay. No one will know, yet both are happy. That, is the definition of a good business deal.

It's like getting married, no guarantees that you will live happily ever after, or that this Dino will never drop a valve.

Regards, Alberto

 

Of the few Classiche Red Book pages regarding the interior specification of Chairs & Flares Dinos I've seen, they do not refer to the black inserts or Daytona style seat inserts to confirm whether or not they were original to the car.

Example below is from Chairs & Flares Dino 246 GT #07520 which has had its Beige 430 seats retrimmed in Pelle Nera:
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Picture RM Sotheby's.

Are there any examples of Classiche Red Books itemising the Chairs black inserts or Daytona style seat inserts?

 

I was told it sold for $650 in a private sale about 90 days ago. Not verified by me but a trusted and well respected source.

 

I do have a C&F Dino myself with Classiche Red Book....


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Thank you very much. So the Classiche Red Book does NOT confirm whether or not the Daytona Style Seat Inserts are original (same for the 7 1/2" wheels?). Your fourth picture is of a totally separate letter/document from Ferrari Classiche stating the original specification of the car dated 22nd February, 2011, which is not part of the Red Book, whereas the Classiche Red Book is dated 6th October, 2010. No mention of the wider bodywork/flares for the optional 7 1/2"wheels, though you couldn't get the wider Campagnolo 7 1/2" wheels without the wider bodywork/flares.

 

they will not certify a body with wider housing wheels if not original to the car.....
regarding the Daytone-style seat, if not original to the car they do a remark in red below the picture, if the seat isn`t period correct at all they might not give the certificate at all....
regarding the 7,5" Compagnolo rims they confirm with picture that they are original to this car

 

Thank you.

 

This was posted on BaT, certainly some food for thought.


"There’s a delicious conversation about it on *********** right now! Here’s a highlight from the discussion. That’s a lonnng list! It has just come out of a $330k+ restoration but has not ever contested at Concours, so how would it do?
If you were a Concours Judge, then what details do you see, note and would deduct?
Here is what I personally see. A lot of correct parts did not back it onto the car during the restoration:
1) Missing Bumper Grommets P. 9,35 show it is now missing its 8 original bumper to body trim grommets, but were present prior to restoration shown in p. 994,1171, unfortunately so easy for judges to see
2) Wrong radiator fans P. 37,99,716,744 show 4 bladed plastic radiator fans from 308 when 3 blade metal is correct for Dino 246, easy for judges to see
3) Window Vent striker plate missing P. 53 shows vent window striker is missing its finishing plate now using screws but was present before and used correct rivets in p. 1435,1436
4) Missing Dash warning light Photos p. 76,82,83 show the dash is now missing the red “Hazard” light but was present before as shown in photos p. 665,1102 but shown removed with heat damage perhaps electrical problems
5) Steering column incorrect paint P. 89,974 – Steering column embossing of “07826” s/b in white paint not black paint, very easy for judges to see this
6) Wrong door handle fasteners P. 91 – incorrect phillips head screw in door cup, s/b slot hd
7) Interior vinyl trimmed incorrectly P. 92,464 – Incorrect vinyl trim around gas pedal is missing the contour stitching as seen in the before photos of p.1093,1385 This is easy for judges to see
Vent ducts incorrectly secured P.101,235 – 80mm Vent ducts are shown sealed with crimped metal ring clamp (I have never seen this on any Dino before)
9) Wrong trunk upholstery fasteners P.107,109 – Rear trunk firewall carpet is secured with standard screws instead of correct upholstery rings originally used and seen in the before photo of p. 896
10) Engine breather hose wrong P.110 – Breather hose routing and angle are incorrect, missing the 90 degree bend as was present before in p. 1693-1694.
11) Missing Fuel Line stand-off P. 111 – Carb return fuel line is missing stand-off on distributor bolt as is present in the before photos of p. 1034,1054
12) Missing Switch P. 112,116 – Missing 2nd circuit microswitch mounted on aft valve cover
13) Missing plenum fastener seals P. 113,118 – Plenum box knurled nuts missing their rubber seals
14) Wrong label install P. 114 – Plenum box lid sticker upside down
15) Missing Warning label P. 114,117 – Plenum box body warning label missing, engine cover latch s/b tapped not external nuts
16) Missing Warning label P. 115 – Header tank warning label missing
17) Wrong tank fastener mounts P. 115 – Header tank missing LOBO bolts present before in p. 1033,1034
18) Wrong header tank top hose P. 119 shows the wrong braided coolant vent hose when it s/b smooth NBR
19) Wrong bumper stop fasteners P. 119,122 show for rubber stops in bonnet/hood/lid shut channels are secured with phillips screws. This is incorrect, s/b #2 oval head slot screws and an easy known deduction by Judges
20) Broken/departed body piece P. 120 Body metal securing tab for Header tank return hose now departed broken off, but was present before in p. 1034,1103 In a $330k restoration nobody could weld a tab of metal rather than leave a broken off visible departure edge? most odd!
21) Wrong door jamb trim panel fasteners P. 123 shows trim panel with phillips screws, s/b slot panhead as seen in before photos p.1042, 1124 So easily seen by judges
22) Wrong undertray P. 122 missing fiberglass steering underbody access panel, aluminum is incorrect but not easily seen by judges
23) Wrong finish P. 215,1455 Drop gear cover fasteners painted black s/b gc plated
24) Wrong Voltage Regulator P. 235,442 Incorrect Voltage Regulator is installed
25) Painted part s/b Black P. 23,252,253 – The twin post bumper standards are now body color but s/b black as shown in before photos p. 324-330
26) Wrong inner fender panel seals P. 360-368 show the Inner fender panels have incorrect edge seal by fasteners – not SP1 and not using OEM staples but rather cross clamp as seen in before photos p. 906,989,877-879
27) Wrong Fasteners P. 491,492 – Wrong release handle bolts, s/b LOBO bolts as seen before in p. 590
28) Non-Dino Part P. 499,500 – Wrong trim pieces, does not belong on any Dino
29) Non-Dino Part P. 501 – Wrong fuse box, does not belong on any Dino
30) Wrong shock marking color P. 506 – blue and white paint color on shocks s/b yellow
31) Missing connector at door hinge P. 514 – missing door 4/6pin electrical connector
32) Broken upholstery backing panel around triple lever release P. 542 – panel broken at lever edge shows 2″ departed material unrepaired with visible break. This is a known stress point as technicians force two back causing damage when one lever breaks needing replacement
33) Non-Matching door locks P. 581 – two door lock set is not sequential numbers indicating replacement from original
34) Wrong battery P. 668 – Incorrect battery as grp 24 used, when grp 34 is correct but not easily seen by judges
35) Wrong upholstery panels P. 717,718,719 – Incorrect and never belong on a Dino
36) Missing Trunk Access Plugs P. 835-839 – Departed 4 plastic plugs for hinge access holes, but were present before in p. 900,908 This is one of my GO-TO judging point deductions for originality as it is so easy to see.
37) New REPLACEMENT WINDSHIELD Delamination P.1071,1169 – shows broken front windshield needing replacement, but p. 1401-1403 shows that the new replacement now shows edge failure and signs of delaminating.
38) REPLACEMENT WINDSHIELD MISSING MARKINGS P. 1412-1413, 472-747,348-349 show new windshield installed but no detail pics of Manufacturer ID aka “bugs”. The concern is that there is only one modern replacement, by Pilkington, and Dino owners have reported great difficulty in using it as it is far too thin to securely fit in the OEM Dino windshield channel
39) WRONG SCAGLIETTI PANEL NUMBERS P. 1217,1218 – Wrong interior panels. Massini confirms the correct No. is 2871 yet these show No.s 2865 so were possible accident replacement parts as bare panel images show work in this area of car
41) Missing Trim Finish Pieces P. 769-775 show bumpers missing rubber paint pads underneath chrome bumper mounting foot to body
42) Wrong Fuel Pump installed, P. 1665-1670 show the removed fuel pump was an aftermarket BAP unit then replaced with incorrect FACEL unit. FACEL is shown installed in this Dino on p. 1451-1452, 1463, 1500.
*Oddly enough and not installed, the very rare OEM Corona fuel pump is shown in P. 1531-1533 yet will not be delivered to the buyer of this car. Curious marketing! *
43) Wrong Fuel Lines. Cross carburettor fuel lines s/b green Cavis, P.1509,1515 shows installed as black rubber braid
44) Missing Emissions System. Complete US emissions system is missing from Microswitch to Diverter to Manifolds to air pump
45) Missing shoulder seat belts The shoulder portion of the seat belts are missing indicated by the blanked securing anchors "

 

Nearly all of those things are smaller details that would take some time and effort but not much money.

Grommets, screws, seals, hoses, other fasteners, etc.

Others are incorrect photos.

Body panel discrepancies already discussed ad nauseam.

Shoulder belts will take a little searching if they are not in the “old parts bin”.

US emissions system would be a bigger project.

I suspect many folks would skip that despite the possible decreased points in order to save weight, increase power and reduce complexity. I certainly would.

 

FYI item#2, the later Dinos had a plastic three bladed fan that looked just like the aluminum one.

 

My car has a 4 blade fan.

The legend/myth is the the 3 blade fan is not sufficient so people swap out for the 4 blade.

I’m happy with my car’s cooling. I suppose if I was in national concours I’d swap it out.

I think my fans were originally swapped out in 2005 because the 3 blade fan seems to attract plastic bags in a deliberate act of self destruction.

 

Well, I would complain...specially at the slight price outlay.

Regards, Alberto

 

^^ You’ve been complaining right along without any outlay whatsoever so that’s not much of a shock. We’re talking about a 50yo car that needs a trivial amount spent correcting items for concourse - if that’s even what the new owner is seeking.

 

and he is not seeking that , either was the guy I did the project for

 

Don’t close the story yet!

Imagine an unrestored, non C&F, 1972 GTS, 32,XXX miles, with the Trifecta ... Concours Platinum and Concours Preservation Platinum and Coppa Bella Macchina (yes, Shawn, even the seatbelt light/buzzer and key in ignition buzzer work , and the wind wing locks have never fallen off), and Ferrari Classiched (yes, all the numbers match). Maybe that makes it a Quadfecta.

The car is not for sale so no need to think anything shady is going on. Just humor me, please, and give an estimate, if you would for insurance value.

Thank you very much.