812 Replacement Rumors | Page 69 | FerrariChat

812 Replacement Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Thecadster, Jun 29, 2021.

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  1. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    In this respect, the 296 series is the best they are able to do, given all the current and future safety equipment and decarbonization regulations.
     
    Maximus1973 likes this.
  2. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 2, 2005
    9,414
    Full Name:
    LaCrinoid
    I completely agree. This leads to a question. How much control do they actually have when these ridiculous fools are trying to legislate cars and joy out of existence...?
     
  3. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2017
    1,369
    Full Name:
    T
    Best they could do based on their chosen product and powertain strategies. I would love it if Ferrari had a direct competitor to the GT4 RS - a compact driver’s car with a 500(ish) hp NA engine.
     
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  4. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,503
    Earth
    Value for money and exciting attributes make the 4RS a permanent keeper IMO - one of a kind and top of the ICE world until maybe the 3RS :) - we will know shortly
     
  5. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    There are still spaces to make a car, it is a question of management strategy.
    For the replacement of the 812, nothing prohibited to make an SP 3 in aluminum frame for example.
    But for them, it's only the hybrid and the electric that counts to spend money...
     
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  6. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    The size is good, but they could still decide to make a PS EV directly and put a NA V6 in compensation for this so important range.
    Again, a matter of strategy.
    Personally, I would have preferred that he leave the 296 in NA with the 167, and pass everything else in hybrid or EV to balance
     
    plastique999 and sampelligrino like this.
  7. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    Ferrari wants roughly $300,000 price point before options, not $150,000. Competing products from Lamborghini and McClaren create mandate for much higher horsepower than 4RS. Completely different market and price positioning. Will never see a Ferrari again with a base price starting with anything under $200,000.
     
    Maximus1973 likes this.
  8. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    Yes 296 would have been nice if non-hybrid but realistically anything except V12 does not have enough horsepower to command $300k unless hybrid in today’s competitive landscape and Ferrari was not about to take LESS money than the 488/F8 for its bread and butter mid engine sports car.
     
  9. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    We would ALL love to see one more regular production MID-ENGINE V12 whether it’s purely Naturally Aspirated OR hybrid V12. Ferrari would sell 2,000 of them a year for 4 years at $600k before options and quite easily. Please put in a word at the factory …
     
    Senad, REALZEUS, JTSE30 and 1 other person like this.
  10. Newjoint

    Newjoint Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2016
    1,066
    This forum has been crying for a regular production rear mid V12 for years. Ferrari does whats it wants and charges what it wants and sells them all. Frankly I would be fine with a hybrid V12 with 900+ hp as long as it can put the power down. I would love it to be under 3500lbs(light as hybrids go) 4 wheel drive if need be for traction but with a light touch to make it seem rear drive only. 1000 hp for the street? No problem with today’s electronic assistance that turns you into a super driver(yeah it’s not purist but Ferrari is never going to do that- it’s beneath them to compete with a GT3 or 4). The 812 is already close to delivering hypercar performance in a Sports/GT package.
    A little weight loss, slight bump in engine output and a mild hybrid should get the car into the 900+ range and get its 1/4 mi times into the low 10/hi9s especially if they add 4WD. Make it beautiful- and a spider version and I may just part with my GTS. Make it rear mid and I will pay for it sight unseen.
    If I want a purist car I’ll get a GT3 or 4. I won’t find those types of cars in a Ferrari, McLaren or Lamborghini dealership- they move in different circles. Leave it to Ferrari to charge what they are charging and getting for the 296- a V6 hybrid. Ford did a V6 turbo with the GT but I have no interest in cars like those. At least Ferrari gets we wants good (not necessarily loud)sound


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  11. 008

    008 Karting

    Jun 6, 2006
    217
    Houston, TX
    I’d buy a 296 without the hybrid in a heartbeat and pay the same price. It would probably be close to or maybe even under 3k lbs. with 600hp it would be fast and fun.
     
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  12. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2017
    1,369
    Full Name:
    T
    Perhaps I shouldn’t have said ‘direct competitor’ as it doesn’t need to be at the same price point. Ferrari could charge $300,000 for a car with the same ethos as the 4RS. My main point being that Ferrari has deliberately chosen to not pursue the compact/lightweight/NA/non hybrid formula (to the dismay of many customers I believe).
     
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  13. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    873
    OC
    Good question. Currently Chevrolet makes an 670 hp, NA, 9000 rpm, v8, mid-engine supercar. Not only that, but it meets the ultimate FerrariChat criteria for all new Ferraris…. it looks like a Corvette!

    Just saying. They went this route by choice, not by necessity. The 296 should have a 700 hp NA V8 that revs to 10,000 rpm, but Ferrari chose to sell out to all the ESG nerds just like the rest of all the publicly traded companies.

    No hate towards the 296 btw, I actually love the car and think they did a great job given the constraints the idiots who run this company set for the the car.
     
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  14. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 2, 2005
    9,414
    Full Name:
    LaCrinoid
    Ferrari are built in the EU. This may contribute.
     
  15. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK

    Interesting train of thought there. Since the SF90 Stradale already offers 1000 HP though, the V12 would need to go about 1200 to make sense. That would mean more heft, of course.
    I disagree that a GT4 is a purer car though. Simpler yes, but why purer?


    Ssuch an Italian car exists, it's the Maserati MC20, but it is slow compared to the 296 and Ferrari couldn't afford to offer a car slower than the competition.


    I don't think you comprehend the implications of having to abide by the regulations of the EU.
     
  16. 008

    008 Karting

    Jun 6, 2006
    217
    Houston, TX
    No, it’s not the same. The Maserati is much larger/heavier than such a car would be. I was excited for the MC20 initially but was let down by the final product. Ferrari has offered cars slower than the competition many times with great results btw.
     
  17. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Usually Ferraris are as fast, if not faster, than the competition.
    I don't get what you didn't like about the MC20 though. It is an amazing car, but it is a 600 HP car after all, not an 800 HP one, like the 296.
    The 488 is quicker than the MC20, how could Ferrari offer a slower new car than its own 8 year old 488?

    Ferraris were never small and lightweight (like Lotuses); they have always been about the engine. People asking for a Porsche GT4 are missing the point IMHO. This was never Ferrari territory.
     
  18. 008

    008 Karting

    Jun 6, 2006
    217
    Houston, TX
    I’m actually not suggesting it would be a slower car. On the contrary, I think a 600hp, 2800lbs car properly set up would outperform an mc20 or an artura, etc, especially on a track. I was just pointing out Ferraris are not always the “fastest”. Case in point, the 812 and the aventador. Does it make the 812 any less? Do the owners care? Maybe some but then they’d likely be Aventador buyers.

    They also could have positioned it differently. Keep the SF90 and future variants as the king of mid engine speed and build a fun to drive car based around a world class engine, albeit a six cylinder one. They would sell every one at the current price point and it would be significantly cheaper to produce while keeping some folks in the brand who may not want hybridization or electrification. With the short cycle runs they could easily do that without running afoul of any regs. They are building the Roma and Portafino after all. YMMV as they say, just a thought.
     
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  19. mthompson2376

    mthompson2376 Formula Junior

    Feb 2, 2017
    254
    North East England
    Full Name:
    Mark Thompson
    Down country roads yes, but on a track which for me is where a Speciale belongs (which is where mine spent most of its life), no, the chassis can give more than the power delivered at 600hp and they always felt a little disappointing, try follow an 812 down a straight…they are like time warp machines to the next corner, be brave on the brakes catch them a little, and you will also be shocked how close they can hang on with rear wheel steer in the corners, and the Speciale feels flat coming out of slow corners, the Pista (with turbos, smaller engine) offers really the limit of power that that era of chassis can deal with, offering almost perfect power to chassis dynamics and balance, has almost no turbo lag worth discussing, and actually sounds better with its inconel exhaust…so does the standard italia for that matter IMO. Nobody who owns a Pista moans about the turbos, nobody.

    My view, the only way they are going to deliver more power from the current V12, has to be assisted, another 20hp from NA really is going to be unnoticeable, and then you have what it looks like from this thread most people don’t want, a V12 Roma with really no significant transition to something special.

    I agree with many comments, whatever they produce, essentially the car dynamics need to be able to use that power effectively, if not it will be an over powered pig. Who wants that…

    They need to pull off the same transition from Speciale to Pista for me, and I want to be able to drive the cars close to their limits….and come home….


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  20. john Owen

    john Owen Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2018
    444
    Full Name:
    John Owen
    The MC20 is a pretty amazing Supercar but with its lightweight V6 engine and Carbon Fibre chassis should be even lighter than the current 1475Kg. It would be an exceptional car if it weighed 1400Kg( 3086lbs).
    In terms of the 812 replacement all they needed to do was clothe it in a different smaller body and pull out all the stops to make it 100Kg lighter. Adding any form of power assistance whereby by Turbos or Hybrid(including mild) and 4WD just adds weight and complexity required adding power just to compensate and retain the existing power to weight ratio.
    However upcoming regulations by unelected EU law makers on a futile quest to save our planet will call the shots which doesn't excite me one bit !
     
  21. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Buy the Challenge version of the 296 and make it street legal.
    Car of your dreams.
     
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  22. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    So true, not enough love for the Pista currently.
    In the hands of a capable driver it's litterally scary fast and you can feel this is as musch power as the chassis can hold. It's a murderous beast on the street and a playfull Raptor on the track.
    You can feel that Ferrari realy used their racing experience to push that car.

    It's miles better on the track vs a 812.
     
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  23. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    Everything you say is true, but...the Pista doesn't give off the thrill of an NA that rises in the revs in stages, and the sound, sorry the noise is abominable
     
  24. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,282
    Le caylar (France)
    Full Name:
    mathieu Jeantet
    Slight OT
    What is your opinion about the next supercar ?
     
  25. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Let's agree to disagree a bit.
    I truly loved my 458.
    But the Pista is a better car on all accounts despite the sound perhaps.
    Even though to me the Pista (Piloti) doesn't sound that bad at all.
    The hisses and bangs from the turbo do make a nice addition.

    I won't compare the Pista to a V12 car as that's a different platform all together.
     
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