812 Replacement Rumors

It is easier to be 'right' when you serve up every possibility...

To be fair @day355 previously said F167 would not be hybrid:
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/488-replacement.570048/page-100#post-146471551

and then that it would be hybrid
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/148320555/

and now, not hybrid...
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/148680577/

Ferrari appears to agree, no V12 hybrid:
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Yes true, but I sense he is giving us the play by play inside the factories thinking. I think at one point the factory definitely could have been thinking a possible semi hybrid on the V-12 given the upcoming EU standards, but then changed their mind, that's the kind of commentary I think were are getting from day355.

 

Lamborghini built a new V12 Ferrari will have theirs - other than the Purosangue and Icona what will get a V12 NA after 72 pages.
Regarding the167 engine - what is the hp and size?
167 also happens to be the electric in 296 - sort of odd.

 

And yet, the SP4 is "on the workbench"...presumably will be a V12

and, @day355 additionally (April 2022) indicated the F167 is "complicated" in regards to product strategy of it being 'hybrid' of some sort
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/148504170/

Yes, and at some point the factory was ready to completely cancel the F167 (presumption is October 2021, shortly after Vigna was installed).

 

But, did Lamborghini make a new V12 or simply adapt a plug-in-hybrid to the existing V12...I doubt they made an all new V12.

The F167 will apparently use the 812C engine, perhaps slightly de-tuned, at this point it will be amazing if Ferrari developed an all new V12 and was this.close to cancelling the project last year.

 

Understood. Mclaren Lamborghini Ferrari don't just change and scrap in todays automotive world.
Engineering R&D parts takes years to work with suppliers and equipment to build a production line with supplies.
He is stating a whole new car with existing door handles - because it's already been approved but no one knows if it's the next gen 812 V12 NA
NA V12 is limited per Ferrari - subtract the Purosangue there is not a lot of production left.

 

Lamborghini is making over 1000 hp in their V12 - no one is sharing the engine that I have seen.
F167 again is the same number as 296 hybrid - so perhaps it's the 812C engine with hybrid
I find it hard to believe Ferrari is not focussed on producing hybrid and electric.

 

The Lamborghini V12 is not 1000HP, it is far less, however, with the addition of 3 electric motors and a battery pack, it will then produce a combined output of 1000HP. I presume the existing V12 is used, and then adding 220HP via electric motors, this is intended to equal/slightly exceed the combined power output of the SF90 (Ferrari's top model). Future iterations of Lamborghini's hybrid V12 will involve more power from the electric motors and without changes to the combustion engine...

The F167 is no longer the top model and is not "in competition" with other Ferrari models (other than the 812 it succeeds), so its power being the same as the 296GTB is irrelevant (as far as Ferrari is thinking). And, the 296GTB is rated at 819HP, the 812C V12 achieves that without hybrid, so, unless a 48v mild-hybrid is used (remember, no electric warning stickers required when less than 60v electric system is being used), there would appear to be no requirement for the F167 to include hybrid.

Otherwise, yes, Ferrari is only focused on hybrid and then full electric (zero BEV mules currently exist...they might not make the 2025 reveal or if they do it will be years after before it enters production), that is why Vigna was ready to cancel the F167 (per @day355) and definitely, though curiously, why Michael Leiters was fired and replaced by Gianmaria Fulgenzi (who knows nothing about BEV or hybrid development....)

 

On numerous occasions. The weight of the SF90 Stradale springs to mind.

Any proof of that? I guess that with the hybrid module it will be close to that, but these are just speculations.

I think that people read way too much behind Leiter's dismissal (or resignation?). For all we know he could have personal issues with his superiors. Ferrari has a huge pool of extremely talented engineers. There is no reason to panic.

 

Could the F167 be the same sort of deal as when the F8 was dropped in after the Pista?

Better that an 812 but still with most of the Comp upgrades without the wilder styling etc...or will it be something completly different?

 

The F8 was a stop-gap measure since the 296GTB was not ready and the 488 model line was being retired (due to age) and emissions regulations (GPF) were coming into force for Ferrari (affecting other manufacturers years earlier, Ferrari had deferments) and it made no sense to continue the 488 line for another 3+ years, hence the F8.

So, to me, no comparison to the 812->F167 progression. The project name F167 was revealed in 2017, it was a well developed plan that has had many development delays. It is presumed to be a return to a more traditional Ferrari design (like the Roma), so not wilder design, and part of its development delay is its usage of new chassis (same as used on the Roma).

 

Your right the V 12 production capacity is limited for sure, in talking with my guys at my dealer I was told the introduction date on the 167 is late 2023 maybe early 2024 so its still a ways off even though supposedly its development is pretty much done. I believe the reason for that is just what you are saying they don't have the capacity to increase V12 production, they have the new Purosangue 12's to build, finish up on the 812C and Aperta and the SP 3 as well, not a lot of room for additional V-12 engines to be built.

 

That would be disappointing IMHO...

 

812GTS production demands also contribute...which is also another reason to delay F167 reveal, for instance, the 812SF was revealed a few months before F12 production ended.

 

Yep, forgot that one 812GTS

 

As I’ve already said somewhere IMHO Ferrari will not make a new small displacement V12 to be used with a turbocharger because there is too short time to produce this engine before everything will to electrical engine . The actual V12 will not be able to respect new anti pollution rules. There is a rule saying that if the average pollution of your production is low because your main production is Hybrid and Electrical cars then you are allowed to have a 10% of the total production not fully compliant to general anti pollution rules. If this is right you see Ferrari moving to Hybrid solutions as F90 and 296 , close booking of all others models except Roma . So you can produce some limited number or ,even if non limited ,normal people can’t book like 812 competizione/ aperta , Purosangue , Daytona Sp3, Monza sp1 sp2 with 12 V . Therefore IMHO 12V will be only for people considered by Ferrari as VIP or with privilege . I think it will not be as before anymore and normal people will be not able to book them .

 

That makes perfect sense and share that view. V12 will become a lot more exclusive - and expensive - that it used to be it will be reserved in a not too distant future only to vip clients / icona models and cars sold for millions each. This is the only way they can justify to continue to extract lot of money from the current V12 and justify having a non compliant line in the range - buy the last special series V12 : 599gto, tdf while you can before it’s too late.

 

I don't think anyone thought that as a possibility.

 

Ferrari is sold out for the next few years - 73 pages later and dealers are still trying to load 812 GTS in the system with success - It appears there’s an update to the Roma not the 812 let alone V12 but for Suv and Icona. Cars are built around engines - don’t believe things happen as quickly as some state. Engine designs product lines are all forecasted and funded. Lamborghini who has Audi Bentley spent a fortune to build their SUV.. sorry I just don’t believe this thread has any 812 next gen info.

 

But simple and modern (as day355 has mentioned) is not traditional, it is TIMELESS! In this regard, the F167 seems to go a step further than the Roma.

 

Far be it from me to try to convince you, you are free to think what you want and me not to write what I do not want.

 

Well, I have told my dealer I would like on the list as soon as available.


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Same.

 

Lamborghini arriving late to the party with less than SF90 Valhalla V8 would not make sense with a V12.