https://www.nikihasler.com/en/Cars/423/Ferrari-575-M-Manuale
Lovely colour combo on the Swiss car.\ But, I guess Taz will confirm, early car, no FHP mentioned, not low especially low mileage. GWS Of note though is that this is the first 575M I have seen offered with a Classiche red book. Maybe this will become important if converted cars start to appear on the market? Interestingly, if standards remain the same, cars with after market exhausts, upgraded suspension or even non standard ECUs would fail the Classiche test. So don't throw out any bits if you want to go down this road.
I think Classiche certification exists here to purely juice the valuation. IMHO, a manual 575 more expensive than a Barchetta or a 575 SA is a hard proposition to justify.
That's a big price for a non FHP car without exceptionally low mileage. Maybe it's a friend of the dealers flying a kite and not expecting a sale. In looks it's almost a ringer for my manual 575, though mine is TdF not Nart blue. And mine has FHP and is RHD! I guess I would sell mine for this price if someone offered but that's not likely. It's an interesting point Graham makes about Classiche and conversions.
Classiche may not be of much value to detect a converted manual car - I think it's very easy to check the original configuration with the VIN (for a 550, I got the optional color of the brake calipers reported, so for a 575 I guess all details are also available), it will tell whether the car was manual or F1 without needing any certification cost.
So, a question; Dinos with “chairs and flaires” sell for big premiums. Many of those Dinos did Not come out of the factory that way. But apparently the buyers paying huge amounts for those cars don’t care. Your opinion? Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
In my opinion.. A Dino that has been converted to C&F spec is a waste of a good Dino. Actually that is not so much my opinion rather than how the classic car market works. Originality, rather than enhancement, is key. A 575 that left the factory as an F1 should be left as such. Let’s be honest it is a better bang for your buck, as a driver, than a manual But, if 575 manuals enter the world of proper collectors cars, then every thing needs to be correct. Which in terms of Ferrari and Classiche certification means, the car is as it is when it left the factory gates. From my experience with older Ferraris, I would suggest that everybody with a 575 manual gets factory Classiche in the next few years. This will preserve/enhance value. It is not really aimed at us, knowledgeable enthusiasts, but it is aimed at firstly, an income stream for Ferrari Spa and secondly, to assure a new buyer to the classic Ferrari world that what they are buying is the real thing. Note: This means the retention of original parts.
OK but what about adding options that were available for the model year? For example OEM modular wheels on a car that did not leave the factory with them. Hard to imagine something like that decreasing the cars value. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
No, I don’t think adding OEM Modular’s would decrease value at all, but i would also hang onto the originals, space permitting.
I respect your opinion, but your statement about how the classic car market works relative to originality does not seem to be absolutely true with regard to recent trades in Dinos or older Ferrari. A Dino with added C&F, or a converted 575 are both trading at large premiums over their non converted brethren. And as far as, “bang for your buck as a driver”, a 550 or a 575 with a stick seems to be much more coveted and in demand than a 575 F1, as far as the market is telling us from pricing. My experience comparing F1 & stick in the Maranello is that the F1 probably does better lap times on the track, (as long as you’re doing the paddling) but is rather cumbersome and often better not left in auto mode on the street. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
I am surprised that Dinos converted to a non original spec are trading at a premium. I haven’t seen enough converted 575s trade to make any judgement. Of course people spending that kind of money on a conversion want a premium to the pre modified value and maybe get it. I would be very cautious about buying one and that would be reflected in my hypothetical bid. My point though, is more about Classiche certification. Though far from perfect, it does afford a level of assurance to the buyer that their intended purchase is correct. The red book does add value to classic Ferrari, it may start to do so for a genuine manual 575. They work on a “factory gate” model. Therefore if you change wheels or exhausts or other parts it is worth keeping those parts that you are taking off. My point is no more than that. My comment on the F1 cars is simply that they present reasonable value in todays market.
Regarding converted 575M, from personal experience: Bot 6 years ago for $85k. Converted for $28k, (including new clutch and full service), with factory parts. (Retained F1 parts). Drove for 5 1/2 years. Sold in Spring of 2022 for $205k. If the new owner wants to convert it back, it’s about 10-12 hours labor. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Lorenzo- Sounds like you need some lessons on how to drive an F1 575M. Mine is never cumbersome and has never been in Auto.
Glad to hear. Some people get used to the mediocre. Some people are more demanding. The Ferrari F1 system has undergone a dozen or so generations of improvements for good reason. As far as my needing lessons; I’ve owned a dozen Ferrari, I’ve been trained by Ferrari at Mugello and Fiorano and have hundreds of hours of track time with all variations of paddle shift and DCT systems, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Audi R8 among them. My opinion is that the Maranello F1 system is cumbersome based on my extensive experience.
Lorenzo- My statement still stands, regardless of your extensive experience. I have limited experience, having not purchased my first Ferrari until 1975 and only owning my F1 575M for 14 years. Cumbersome is in the hands of the driver, as are mediocre experiences.
Cumbersome by one definition is ponderous, which has nothing to do with a driver needing lessons on how and when to press a paddle. Your tactic of insulting and arguing with people whose opinions you disagree with is boorish. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
That's an interesting price point and detail. Would you be willing to take a best guess estimate as to how much your car would have sold for this spring in its original F1 form? And, in your view, how much would it have sold for in identical spec, condition and mileage had it been a factory manual? Prices are odd for these cars. In early 2020 I was offered £135k for mine, in 2021 I was offered £175k by my service shop on behalf of a client while simultaneously an auction house said they would market it it for an estimate of £120-140k, reserve of £130k. That was last year..now who knows!
It makes no sense for potential buyers to pay a premium which approaches the cost of the factory built 6spd manual car. If this trend persists the factory built 575M 6spd manual car should bring even more funds for an original example and initiate financial divergence between the conversion and original. The 599 conversion does not approach the entry price point of the factory built 6spd manual car. True, the 6spd manual factory built 599 is much more scarce. Buyers have not missed the collectable nature of the 6spd manual 599 factory build.
You’re asking me questions and estimates which from reading many of your posts, that you’d be more likely to know than I. The market postings of actual sales would be the best source, no? I never advertised my car. Only through a third party did the eventual buyer know about my car. I was not actively trying to sell it. He and I spoke over the period of a few months, he made an offer and I accepted it. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
You needn’t correspond with me on this subject or any other, now or in the future. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Lorenzo- It will be a pleasure. Unlike what your mommy told you, everything you say is not sacred. Just put me on ignore.
Seriously p), the only car for which I would understand a conversion is the 355. Although it probably improved the pure performance, this first implementation was really terrible - and if the price of manual 355 is going through the roof due to scarcity, paying for a conversion makes sense since the fallback solution of the previous car that comes with a manual transmission (the 348) is really a stepback from the 355. But from the 360, the F1 system did actually improve (even though it was a continuous process) so it was in line with the expectations for in-period cars; if someone does not like cars of the times it's IMHO better to look for a car of another time rather than modifying an existing car. Particularly, the F1 system of the 575 was not that bad since it was actually only surpassed by the one of the 599 (some may argue the 430 Scuderia's was better, but personnally I tend to believe it added some artificial rawness, just for pretending to be sportier - a ploy the 599 did not need). So if someone does not care with the added performance and modernity of the 575, he'd rather go for a 550. A manual 575 could be interesting as a collectable rarity if it's original, but as a modified car it's more of a showing-off statement IMHO (no offense intended , people spend their money as they like). Disclosure: I drove all the cars mentioned and personnally owned a 348, two 550 (one currently), one 575 F1 and one 599 F1; as a comparison point I also own a DCT with the 488.
With great respect, Lorenzo, referring to the F1 transmission as cumbersome is solid proof to me that you have not actually driven an F1 Maranello. I've owned my 2004 575M F1 for thirteen years and driven thousands of miles including a very little mild track driving. It is by a wide margin the smoothest and fastest-shifting transmission of any kind that I have ever handled. One shifts with a finger flick, up and down. Cumbersome? Not remotely. And it is never in auto since that induces excessive, needless clutch wear.
