So. Yesterday as you can see, I installed the front cover. New seal, new bearing, new o ring etc. The tensioner pad for the cam drive pulley was actually in really good shape so I am reusing. The pad for the oil pump, I got the 355 pad from super performance. The coupling is different, and the 355 is spring loaded which seems better. However it will not fit on the 348 spindle. So what i did was slide just the pad off the new mechanism and installed it on the old. the “upper” oil pump tensioner pad was not worn either so I did not touch that. in total there are 3 pads. The “upper” pad , attached to the inside of the cover. This I did not touch. The lower pad, which is also attached to the door via a 10mm nut and two washers. then there is the cam drive pad, which is attached to the block via two 10mm bolts. when I put all this together I tightened the 2 bolts (cam drive) and the 10mm nut (oil) to 78 inch pounds. This is my “go to” torque for 10mm bolts/nuts when I cannot find the answer. (This is the same torque for example that the cam covers use) so everything went back together….. the I discovered last night post 421 in this thread. This post shows the workshop manual…. “chain tightener fastening to crank case” at 59NM. 59NM is 513 inch pounds which seems spectacularly tight for a 10mm bolt or nut……. also, the manual lists the thread as 10x1.25. My understanding, when reading these numbers, is that the 10 is the diameter of the THREAD not the head. Correct ? so this makes no sense as all the bolts / nuts involved have a 10mm head not a 10mm thread. so I am confused. Part of me wants to open the front cover again to correct this, but I can totally see the bolts snapping if I apply 500+ inch pounds of torque to it…… so what am I doing / reading / understanding wrong ?
not to jam up your works, but did you inspect the bearing on the engine side with all that apart? sjd
Yes as sjd just mentioned the upper large sprocket support bearing in the engine side is the source of the Technical bulletin as orriginal was a roller brg, replacement is a ball brg
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Hi. Thank you for the replies. I did replace the inner bearing ! When I pulled the front cover off, the inner roller bearing fell apart. So yes, I see why they changed it ! the above pictures show all the bolts/ nuts that I have concerns about. All of these are 10mm heads. my primary question is, if you were putting this engine back together what torque would you use on A, B and C. If you can give me this information I will be very happy and can move on. my next question ties back to my post above. Which one of these, A, B or C, is the “chain tightener fastening to crack case 10 x 1.25” which is listed in the workshop manual ? Is it A, B or C ? I don’t think it’s any of them as none of these have a THREAD which is M10. Unless I am missing something ? last question, and I am embarrassed to ask this, but can you tell me how to read the bolt chart above ? I fully understand this chart, if you know what bolt grade you are using, but I have no idea…. Or is the purpose of the chart to only look at the lowest grade ? For example, if you have a M10 thread you can see that the max torque for grade 8.8 is 57.3nm. Is this the idea ? So never go past 57.3 because that’s the maximum….? Thanks In advance!
All those 10mm heads (M6) bolts are low torque application. No more than 10Nm is what I would use. The table that is posted above by our resident 348 expert (Billybob) shows maximum torque (not to exceed this value) to be applied. The values are higher for higher rated bolts. The bolt grade is found by looking at the head of the bolt. There is a number, for example 8.8 casted on the head. I would use 10Nm for those bolts, and be done. As for the M10 bolt, the only one there that is M10 is the one the oil pump pulley is mounted to.
Fasteners are never ever measured in wrench size. The diameter of the threaded portion is what matters.
Generic torquing charts as shown above only apply to fasteners threaded into steel. Many fasteners on a Ferrari thread into aluminum. Consulting the Ferrari shop manual torquing information is a far better idea.
Hello Tightening torque on steel or aluminium is the same provided the minimum thread length is respected in aluminium (1.5xdiameter) which is always the case on an engine. Juste careful if the bolt is a grade higher than 10x9 the tightening torque in aluminium should be limited to the 10x9 torque. For all your small bolts (M6 hex 10) : 10Nm maybe 11 but never more.
Better tell Ferrari. For one thing few bolts screw into a Ferrari engine. 90% plus of the fasteners are studs. Those that are not studded are usually but not always helicoiled at the factory. Those that are not helicoiled do not always follow your 15% rule. Also many chassis fasteners are bolts into alloy, have a lower torque and do not follow the 50% rule. Follow Ferrari Torque specifications. There is no reason not to do so.
I see what you mean but I really don't know what is the safest advice to tell to Op because there are mistakes in all torque specifications. I think I recall there are several mistakes in the 348 one and usually the description is not clear enough (hence why Op wants to torque a M6 to 59Nm)! ( “chain tightener fastening to crank case” at 59NM.) The only time I ****ed a bolt using a torque wrench was when I just started using it and blindly followed a mistake in a torque specification.. I have went through lots of work on my F119 and did the same work as Op did and I have never seen any fastener not respecting the rule I previously said on the engine (1.5 x diameter for the length in aluminium) and I have never have any issue applying the usual torque rule for a 8x8 bolt on an engine (M6: 10/11Nm, M8: 22/23Nm and M10 47/48Nm) for USUAL stuff (like here for mounting a cover plate). Of course for more spicy stuff like bearing cap, pulley or so on always check the torque specification!! Also always try to check that your bolt is a 8x8 grade, it must always be the case on an engine like that but you can have a dirty previous owner/mechanic who put a 6x8 and it will break! If you see 10x9 or 12x9 then it is a "spicy" fastener and you must check the torque specification. Of course the fastener will handle the torque if it's in good condition. Be careful if you can't screw by hand.. I assume that what I say may not be right for older Ferrari (or others old cars) but I have the feeling the design of the F119 is not as bad as we would say of an italian car! And yes for the chassis you are right, I am never confident when bolting into the chassis and I apply a much lower torque in this case. By the way Op did you also upgraded your oil chain tensioner bracket? The updated tensioner from 355/360 must be fitted with its upgraded bracket otherwise it won't fit on a 3.4.
The real problem is that the 348 workshop manual SUCKS. It is very vague, and missing lots and lots of information, bolt torque specs for everything on the car being just one. For the most part I have always tighten the bolts/nuts by feel. I will pay close attention to how much pressure I used, and how far the wrench moves from initial removal before the bolt/nut comes loose. Then when I refasten I just do the reverse. Normally on most not critical bolts/nuts I tighten until there is contact + 1/4 to 1/2-ish turn, again depending on how tight it was when I removed it. I know this is not the exact way of tightening things, but it's how I have done it for years, the stooge way. Yes I have a torque wrench, and yes I use it on things like head and rod bolts. But most things I have tightened by feel. Sorry I couldn't be of more technically accurate help.
Thank you all the responses. My conclusion is that I did it right the first time ! I went with 78 inch pounds which is 9 Nm. And then I did “a bit more” so I am confident that I am good. I just got freaked out when I saw the 59nm in the Ferrari book…. so I am moving on. Going to try and get the cams back in today. I’ll post some more pics once I get the next bit done! thank you again
Image Unavailable, Please Login This engine is not the easiest to get the belts on and cams lined up. On my 308 there are two belts which is much easier. I found that when the tension on the spring was released it moved either the cam or the crank and then using the pin in the cam sprocket there was not enough degrees to make the adjustment. I did get it in the end. Also wanted to post a picture of my tensioner bearing spring retractor. Perhaps I am getting old, but I could not push that down enough to get the belt on, but using a spring compressor and copper wire made it very simple !
On the bottom of the spring housing there is a hole. Take the whole unit off. Put a screw in that hole sticking out 1/2 inch or so. Use giant zip ties for hvac. Zip tie it collapsed(I use a vise to hole it while I zip it down) and the screw will hold the zip tie. Put it back on, slip the belt on, snip the zip tie and pull it out. Make sure before you do anything the cam pins are in the center hole or the adjustments may be too big. Easy to adjust from there. Also put the belt on without the pins, says so in the manual actually, lock the cams with assembly marks lined up. This way the cam gears can rotate. Also distributes belt tension evenly. Once the belt is tensioned use the hole that lines up. I used that same degree wheel, works excellent. Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Happy New Year all ! I spend some time on this car over the holiday, and it's certainly 1 step forward, 200 steps back.... First I broke another Rear Main Seal as I pushed it in. I am using Ernie's technique of bending the lip back with a funnel, and this does work well, but clearly, I need to bend a little more as I thought I had it, but when I pushed the stupid lip ripped. So gearbox is still not attached to engine. Second, I am putting in new bushings into the A arms. I got one A arm complete, but on the second one my press gave up. To be fair, the press was both cheap and not in the best condition, so hopefully a new press will do the trick. I have just ordered this, along with a "bushing puller set" from Amazon. Thirdly, I could not get the Ring Nut loose on the rear wheel hub. I also bought new wheel bearings / seals etc for a wheel hub overhaul, but could not get the stupid ring nut loose. I have the special socket, which I had to grind down slightly to fit, but whacking it with the air wrench and it would not budge. So instead, I spend a day grinding the nut down with a Dremel and cutting wheel. After carefully doing this for several hours, and being super careful not to nick anything other than the nut it eventually came loose! However, now that it is off, the wheel hub will still not separate. I have hit it hard with a gold punch and hammer and no luck. I have also tried all of my pullers and nothing Last I did have all the cams timed with the belt on, but messed this up also, and this leads me to a question. What is the technique please for torquing down the nuts on the cam drive pulleys after the belt is installed ? (I also have to tighten down the cam drive sprocket ring nut). There are a number of ways I have done this in the past. The simplest is to jam a screwdriver into the brake disk, put the car in gear, and lock the engine this way. This is unavailable to me, as the gearbox is not connected. Secondly, I have jammed cardboard underneath one of the cam lobes to "lock it" from turning. Third I have grabbed the Cam Lobe using locking pliers. I tried method 2 and 3 above, and in both cases the stupid belt jumped. i.e. when I went to torque hard on the bolt, the pulley jumped a tooth. Of course, this means that you have to take the cams out, find TDC again and repeat, so I am asking how do others achieve this please ? It's possible that method one is the only way ? But I am hoping this isn't the case as I have to reinstall gearbox and clutch and then somehow get underneath the engine to try and put the car in gear, so I feel like there must be a better way. One tiny bit of progress was made. Several years ago, I bought the Gold Kit, and at the time I upgraded all of the connectors in the engine bay, but couldn't face spending the day behind the seat doing the T55 connector. With the engine out of the car this is easier, but before attempting I made the attached spreadsheet so that the loom could be tested both before and after. If you search for Motronic 2.7 you can found several wiring diagrams but I have never found these particular useful. The attached spreadsheet shows the pins for a 1990 US Spec TS model, and (assuming your car is the same) it allows each pin to be tested for continuity so you can be certain its working. My one small bit of progress is that I have completed my Gold kit install, and the 2 looms are waiting to be reinstalled on the engine. Any help appreciated
Thanks for the update Jason. Another technique you could try for the rear main seal is, get a 2 ltr bolt, cut the top an bottom off, split it so you can spread it open, wrap it around the back of the crank, then “shoe horn” the seal on, finally slide the plastic off the crank. Be sure that the double lip goes towards the engine, and the single lip towards the gearbox
Just a word of correction, the cam belt follower shoes should NOT be facing INTO the water pump location but facing OUT.
Here look @MoparLM550@426. Looking at this picture, pay attention to the left side (1/4 bank) belt follower. You can see that the cam belt cover is only shaped to accept the shoe facing in one direction, same for the right side (5/8 bank) follower. I tried reversing the 1/4 follower = it will not fit under the the cam belt cover without pressing on the belt. Furthermore, the belt followers are to help prevent the belt jumping a tooth from belt slap. If the followers are not over the cam belt cog/pulley there is no way to keep the belt on the teeth. Finally, if you forced the 1/4 follower to face in the other direction, where it will be pressing on the cam belt = it would burn through the belt, causing it to break, and then destroying the engine. So, on the F119 engine the followers can only go on the direction Ferrari designed them to. Been there, done that, only works ONE way.
