450S #4509 to RM - Monterey 2022 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

450S #4509 to RM - Monterey 2022

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by italiancars, Mar 4, 2022.

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  1. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    Resto was done many years ago andin still non-restored condition with a total lesser resto-standard than today. The car very original when it came to Europe after Hayashi had sold it. It was exhibited in by dealer Klaus Werner in Germany at a car show in 1996 where I saw it. When sold to the USA it received a resto that was not correct in all details. If you think different, OK, you may do so...
    No doubts about Oscar`s taste for cars and his sources but the absolute majority of his other cars -particular the Bugatti and the Ferrari 375MM- had a "story"...
     
  2. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,339
    Hershey, PA
    the car received 2 separate restorations after you viewed it. when it came to US. Dragone did the 1st one when owned by Myron Schuster. It then sold to Scott Rosen where it underwent restoration by Classic Coach. At the time there were a number of significant collectors that were part of Classic Coach’s clientele (including Oscar) that regularly traded cars among themselves. I’ve often wondered if they themselves knew who owned what particular car at a particular moment.
     
  3. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    It was Dragone who restored the car not correctly in all aspects.
     
  4. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,339
    Hershey, PA
    i remember hearing that around the time #4509 went from Schuster to Rosen that there may have been a minor guardrail incident. The car then entered restoration at Classic Coach, as noted earlier we organized a 450S reunion at Le Belle Macchine in 2004. Classic was rushing to finish up details on #4509 for the event. #4503, #4508, #4510 arrived a few days early, we were on the phone with Classic taking photos of particular details of the 3 cars to finish up #4509.

    The only thing that is not correct is the quilting in the interior, which if I remember correctly is attached with velcro, easily removable.

    BTW the only surviving US based 450S that we were unable to get to the reunion was #4504.
     
  5. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,339
    Hershey, PA
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    The car was offered to me 3 months ago. Discussed it with a potential buyer but at the end it was a wise decision not to buy it.
    However, the car is not a simple 450S-replika fitted with the common Ghibli engine like so many wanna-be`s. Its technically 100% correct to the real thing.
     
  7. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2017
    477
    Belgium
    Full Name:
    Serge
    Walter, thank you for the info.
    This car looks to me to be indeed a very nice re-creation and race car.
    I am not a potential buyer (no such money available!) but curious anyway why it would not be a good buy.
    Could you say a little bit more about the technicalities that inhibited the purchase by your customer?
     
  8. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    It was simply the fact that it is not a real 450S. Its a very good replica, nothing less - but also nothing more!
     
  9. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2017
    477
    Belgium
    Full Name:
    Serge
    Thank you Walter
     
  10. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    The A6G-2000 Spider by Zagato, chassis #2101, a one-off, was sold post auction to a collector in the USA.
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    91,586
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    This reminds me of that huge English Maserati enthusiast Anthony Hartley's (rip) magnificent recreation of Maserati's majestic Tipo V4 16 cylinder engine and chassis by himself from factory drawings.
    An incredible feat for a single individual

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    The car resides now in Germany since about 7 or 8 years! Another 16-cyl.-V5 replica -but with an original motor!!- is in Italy!
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    91,586
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    That's a shame. The recreation engine deserves recognition for the effort. How could it possibly be original to the car when the car is not?
     
  14. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2007
    503
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Walter,

    Where did they ever find a second motor? That must be quite a story. Can you give any background on the search and successful sourcing of the second original motor?
     
  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    #65 wbaeumer, Aug 30, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
    The 2nd 16-cyl.-engine have been found in a boat many years ago. My friend bought it and got the approval by the factory and Cozza to make a replica. Anthony Hartley did an extensive research about the 16 and so did my friend in Italy.
    I arranged a meeting between both enthusiasts on a Maserati Club meeting in Germany and I never forget seeing both chaps sitting on the ground like little boys, discussing the technical problems and sollutions, surrounded by tons of drawings and other paper work.
    I remember that Anthony once mentioned to me that the entire 16-cyl.-motor has about 3,500 parts...
    The engine itsself is a piece of Art.
    In the early 1930s, the car was very, very fast. But made fastest lap on the Avus race circuit in Berlin, Germany. But the tyres....
    They were the weak point of the car.
     
  16. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2007
    503
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    I'm guessing that the engine was based on joining two straight eight cylinder engine or maybe not. But Maserati had a history of doing that as the V-8 engines had a connection to the straight four cylinder engine used in the 150, 200 and 250 engines used for racing.
     
  17. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    YEs, they combined 2 V8 engines. It was a huge attempt by that small company in the very late 20s/early 30s. But what a machine!!!!
     
  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    Look to my post #65
     
  19. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    450S, chassis #4509 is now owned in Germany.
     

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