Maserati Khamsin

Dear Leo,

Marc wrote the chassis number and gave you important informations.

It is AM120-012

"The car came to us in various pieces but it is in fair condition."

I think, that`s why they are many things wrong on this car.

I think, this car deserves a full restoration.
But only a very small proportion of vehicle owners are willing to spend a lot of money + time and restore these vehicles to their original condition.

Here just some other pictures of it.




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Yes that is the car, and I confirm it is 012, I’ve just received the info from the seller. Given that this is a pre-production car, they probably made some improvements/corrections to later cars that this one did not benefit from.

For a car in such a condition, what would be a maximum value considering the no doubt considerable cost to get it in good shape? I don’t think there is a lot of history and the mileage is probably also on the high side. Would it ever make sense?

 

Thank you, that is very kind, I see that the leaks near the suspension that I see now are then of a later date. Quite a bit of trim damage, can any replacements for this (handles, strips, switches) still be found?

 

Tinkering with this car is not something I would advise. Either full restoration or nothing.

Full restoration is a six figure sum in Euros or Dollars.

The time needed is also much longer than you hope.

This is not a process you embark on on a whim.

A fully professionally restored car is anywhere from Euro 160000 to 250000.

 

Note that the door handles are Alfa Montreal Series 2 style. As far as I know all Khamsins came with the series 1 handle. Given that this is a very early Khamsin, I’d have to question if the Series 2 handles were even in production on the Montreal when this car was built.

 

Dear Leo,

i can just agree with Marc, either full restoration or nothing.

Only thing i can`t agree with Marc, is the value of a fully restored Khamsin.

Not too long ago, a fully restored Khamsin was advertised for around 169,000 Euro. It was on sale for a very long time.
I don't know how much it ended up selling for.
Furthermore, I can't remember any Khamsin that would have fetched more than 200.000 euros,
apart from the one that was auctioned off in 2015 in the overheated high price phase. (This should not have given the owner any financial pleasure either).

Another problem with this vehicle is that no one knows what the original interior looked like.
In my opinion, parts of the interior (seats, carpets) are definitely not original.
But you need to know, how it look like, when it was new to properly restore the vehicle.
Otherwise it ends up as the car looks now.
A leak or new door handles will certainly be the smaller problem compared to the other tasks in a restoration.
That one sentence, "The car came to us in various pieces but it is in fair condition." + my pictures (chrome strips that were fixed with Phillips screws, chassis parts painted by amateurs, etc. etc.) say a lot about the previous life of this vehicle.

 

Thanks for the info - I thought I recognised the handles on this car - they look like Alfetta/GTV handles

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Hello Z,

Since you mention 090 in Holland I was just advised that it sold a couple of weeks ago to someone in the same country.

This was a brilliantly restored car done for Fchat member AMLC who died just a year ago of a heart attack; he spent money no object to get the car redone to the highest standards.
He was a great enthusiast and regular contributor here.

Some photos of that car which I almost sold twice, but no...The net to the sellers was €160K so it sold for that or maybe a tiny bit below. MORE than that was spent, very clearly.

Two cars exceeded €200K in 2015 at public auction during the market bubble: 1142 the black T Top car -an excellent example babied by Bart a very fussy skilled do it yourself owner- which I entered in the Bonhams Grand Palais Auction in February that year for him, it sold all in €206K to a very nice German who just sold it in April of this year to another German who bought 5 cars from him the same day!

The other, still the record in actual auctions was 116 and this was an odd one. It was the very first entry in my Registry back in the 1990's and sat in France for years, then got a hasty respray at some point but was a bit tatty and needed work...It was sold in the Artcurial Champs Elysees sale in Paris summer 2015 for €275K, world record at auction to this day.

One very special car, 406 one of the very last Euro LHD built with only 1200kms was paid for with crazy money and is with owner EH in Germany north of Stuttgart, not driven, kept like new.

I have at hand for sale a very early car whose chassis number I won't mention here, fully restored zero compromises, whose owner (very wealthy not needing money or space in his vast collection warehouse) wants €250K for it (net to him) and I feel it is justified. Likewise his 100% restored Bora.

Here some photos of 090 during and after resto. THAT is as good as it gets.

RIP AMLC, hopefully the new owner will drive it with gusto as you did before the restoration.


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Yes I agree with most - it is in very poor condition just looking at the pictures. If I bought it, it would be to fully restore it - bare metal respray etc. So my worry is parts availability and expertise, certainly here in South Africa. Buying one and importing it is going to very expensive as well, we have 18% customs duty, then on top of that 16.5% VAT, that makes a premium of 37.5%, plus of course transport. I saw one for sale at McGrath for £95,000, that would end up costing me at least €160,000 before any work done as I’m sure there is always work. I’m not sure a restored #12 would cost me less than that.

 

‘Khamsins are an acquired taste (as are Boras). It really has to do with their Citroen Vulcan blood sorry Marc. it’s not a matter of if it’s a good system or not. Or that Alfieri liked and admired the system. The market has reservations about it, a Khamsin would have a market value closer to a Ghibli without it.

 

You could buy 012 for a low price: they know in ZA they are not going to find a buyer easily because there is no expertise there and only one other K in the country (439 the very last K built owned by Ian H) and...here is my idea.

Have it restored in Italy; the car is neither exported from ZA nor imported into Italy or the EU just there temporarily for the restoration and then it comes back. Then you would have the best expertise in the world, no parts issues and voila. The restoration plus container return trip plus purchase price would amount to less than your other options: no taxes etc. Offer the seller 75% of his ask and see what happens.

I can help you with Italy.

Joe: as Leo posted below if some can't appreciate them it is their problem

 

Which is nice for those of us who like Khamsins - I wouldn’t be able to pay the funny money for the “popular” cars.

 

Marc,
It’s just the reality of the market. I’ve owned #1226 for over 35 years.

 

Marc that’s an interesting idea if the car is worth it - can I DM you tomorrow?

 

Yes, you are welcome to. Tomorrow I am home, Monday Tuesday I fly to inspect other Masers.

 

We all know that some people can't get their skull vegetable around the simple concept that hydraulics are just plumbing, not rocket science.
Over and out for today.

 

Hello Marc,

since i didn`t had my Khamsin file in front of me, i could not write down the VIN of the car i meaned.
Still have my file not here. But i meaned the dark blue one (which was original silver) and was fully restored by Peschl.
Maybe VIN was 382 or so, i can`t remember it correct.

And i must say i`m very sorry, i did not know, that AMLC passed away.

 

Hello Z,

I am not sure how much work Leo Peschl has done on that car but yes the car you mention is 382 which was the highest chassis number sold to France and ended up being bought by a German in 2013/14.

Actually looking at my notes €155K were spent on a restoration, which must the work by Peschl.

It is now owned by a German dentist who is coming to KHAMSIN CINQUANTA June 15-18 2023 near Geneva with it, one of about 20 cars and owners who have already committed to the event (for which I am hoping to gather fifty of the 160K's in running condition in the EU and UK )even though we are 9 months before it and registration is not even open yet.

Here some photos of 382: the first two with a reddish sky are from the 80's from an article in a French magazine where it had some rust. Then the next two are just before it was sold to Germany in 2013.
Finally photos in blue in Germany post restoration.

Yes I was very sad when I heard Marien v. d. B. (the name of "AMLC") former owner and devoted restorer of 090 passed away so suddenly and prematurely, a great loss. RIP.

 

Herbert,
Found this old post. I am restoring the rear end of my Khamsin and need new differential mounts as well. What solution did you find for your broken mount?
Anybody have any suggestions. The usual sources don’t carry replacements. Can’t seem to find if these were used on other cars?

Thanks,
Greg

 

Hello Greg and welcome here.

I would try McGrath Maserati in the UK, Schiemenz in Bad Godesberg Germany and some of the UK Italian car part specialists.

May I ask what your chassis number is? Having started the Khamsin Registry 18 years ago I have data on 360+ of the 430 built might have information for you on its history and I would appreciate being able to update my files.
You can PM me if you prefer to keep it confidential.

Best of luck with the work,

Marc

 

Marc,

Thanks for the welcome. I have been following the site for some time and have a gotten a lot of good info from the members. I will try Schiemenz as well, I hadnt heard of them before.

I am in the process of finally restoring #1282. I have owned it for several years but just getting to it as I had to finish a couple other restorations (e-type, corvette) and built a new workshop. The car has sat for over 25 years but is in fairly good shape with minimal rust and most of the parts accounted for. The rubber bits are pretty dried out and it has a horrific orange paint job on it. Previously converted to Euro bumpers ;-). I plan to strip it down and refurbish/replace as necessary, new paint, new interior, rebuild the motor and so on. Original color was Rosso rubino. I am thinking of returning it to that as it seems original colors are more accepted? Thoughts? I will however change the interior to a more appealing shade of tan/beige as the original color is not very pleasant.

I look forward to participating in this forum and will probably have many questions for those more familiar with Khamsins than myself.

Greg

Photo of its current sad condition…

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Hi Greg,

Will answer properly tomorrow.

Great to know 1282 has found a good keeper

 

Hi Greg,

Congrats on your ongoing restoration. 1282 was stored at the late Doug Magnon's warehouse behind his Riverside museum in 2011, I saw a photo online and asked him:

Hi Marc,

The VIN is below. This Khamsin has traded hands a couple times and is in my place for storage (I've never owned this or several other Masers listed on the blog). Keep me informed on the Khamsin gathering!

End of quote. So contrary to rumor he never owned it. When I stayed with him and his gf in Riverside in April 2013 the car was no longer there. Two photos he sent me with that email attached.

The only prior history I have on it is that it was owned in Clarksville TN by a teacher at Austin university for a while.

Rolf Schiemenz, a former President of the German Maserati club before he distanced himself from it, is getting old now and told me just weeks ago he cannot come to KHAMSIN CINQUANTA in June due to that but he has had his Khamsin for many decades, he actually had at least one bad accident in it and he has also done work on other Khamsins when I visited in August 2009 the day after the Nurburgring Oldtimer Grand Prix there were two K's there and both he and a mechanic there had huge Khamsin experience so contacting them is a good idea, his son Roman speaks English.

Also speak with Garage Limacher in Horw, near Lucerne Switzerland, Marcus Limacher is a Khamsin afficionado and owned AM120-100 for many years, he has worked on many of them. He supplied bits for a Khamsin I sold within NY State.

FYI Paypal is not so commonly used in Europe particularly by such workshops so parts payment by bank transfer is the norm.

Rosso Rubino unless I am confused is a darker red which works with Khamsins. K's are too subtle for plain red, it just does not suit them that well.

Here some photos of 1266 in Rosso Rubino which I sold a year or two ago from Toronto to a friend in Georgia. It looks really nice on a K. That car was actually new in Rosso Fuoco, plain red but a former owner who had it restored could not stand it so chose that color instead.
Some people absolutely do not want white for example or Rame Metallizzato (Copper) and end up changing colors but yes the trend is to go back to original colors.

You will find a lot of tech knowledge, here, I am more into history.

Don't hesitate to share photos and tales of your restoration, they are very much enjoyed here, and ask questions this is what this thread is for: keeping and getting these cars on the road!


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There are additional photos of 1266 on this link: https://thecarnut.com/1978-maserati-khamsin-am120us1266/
Rosso Rubino is a good color on a Khamsin.
I do not like black interiors and would have preferred a lighter color, such as Senape.

Ivan

 

Thank you for the information Marc and Ivan. I agree, the Khamsin does look really good in that color and I am definitely leaning toward putting it back to original.

Greg