SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP

Yes it is a puzzle indeed. And very difficult to say something useful, as without proven facts, anything would be only speculation.
What is certain is that you have:
- a coherent body, with the same body number everywhere.
- an engine number which is the same as another engine in an "euro" vetroresina
- a chassis number for which there is at least one other claim (= the group IV car) and possibly some others.

The fact that a Ferrari comes from abroad is not necessarly proof of anything fishy, BUT the small numbers of Ferraris that have been tampered with, for which numbers have been altered, etc...are often exported so as to muddle the paper trail a bit more, and to dilute the history of the car as much as possible; research is then more difficult.

Perhaps you might have some luck with a swiss reader that would know a bit more...

Rgds

 

The engine sequence of install is not really "tight"......

I have thought a lot about your situation, and were it me, I would let the whole matter rest, unitl the time you wish to sell!!

Even then it's really past the times where a 5 digit VIN is readily traceable.
It's a rare and special thing about our early 308GTBs.

My 22127 was a later car, a 1977 sold into Canada.
But the engine failed under warranty.
That would also explain your "slightly later" engine number, although there were NOT a lot of known problems with those engines.

The problem units were produced later with the injected cars thru 1980 and 81.
The rings failed to seat and they became "oil burners".
That's the reason all of our pistons are used up!!

HTH.

 

...as far as the "engine number" goes, Alan, the trouble is not really that the actual number on the engine in his car is out of sequence; it is that it's the SAME ENGINE NUMBER than the one on another car (which owner I do happen to know, by the way...)
So there is something "fishy" here, but why? How? When was it done? For what? By whom?

Rgds

 

Interesting story!

Andreas: have you found any remains of the Blue Acapulco?

I agree with Massini assesment, those numbers in the chassis frame look weird.

Ferrari would be able to tell you which chassis number had your assembly number, I believe thats your only true number.

 

Looking at the chassis

The stars either side of the "20005" seem to either be missing or barely visible (I've tried blowing the picture up, but it's still hard to tell if they're there or not)

I don't claim to be an expert on Ferrari chassis number stamping's, but I was always under the impression that the stars either side of the chassis serial number were quite prominently stamped.

The "20005" also seems very lightly stamped.

 

Chassis number looks ok for a 1977 car. Everything looks real. Send it to Classiche and pay the cost to have the red book: very well spent money for your car.

Ciao

 

Sorry Alberto, but for once, in this matter I definitively disagree with you.
Andreas’ car has the same chassis number than three other cars = there are FOUR cars numbered « 20005 ».
The factory has already told Andreas that the chassis number, the body number and the engine number of his car DO NOT MATCH with their records.

Therefore, my advice to Andreas would be : « agree beforehand with « Classiche » and in writing » about what they are able, or ready, to provide...
Because my fear here is that he would spend € 3.500 or so, only to have them tell him « the numbers do not match », which he knows already.

They will NOT certify his car, this is certain (they told him so) ; the only question here is : « Will they be able to tell him what he has ? »
If the answer is NO, then no need for him to spend € 3.500 or so.

That's only my opinion, but that's my opinion.

Rgds

 

Hi Bruno, thank you: I didn't know this, or better, I only read on this thread there are other three cars with the same chassis number. Classiche Red Book price last year was euro 7000 euro, but I was told now it costs less (I do not guarantee this...).

But for such a car you need a Ferrari "written last word" or the car is worthless.

I read here it was red, then blu acapulco, then blu sera: the owner does need to know what it is, and only Ferrari can tell what that car is. No others, sorry.

Maybe this car has a fake chassis number, or maybe this one is correct and the others three are fake: who knows?

The chassis number and the engine number looks correct for a late 1977 car: I wouldn't bet on the exterior or the interior colors, but if you want to sell that very nice 308 drysump at its correct fullprice sooner or later, you will need an official Ferrari paper that states something. No expert can replace this! the car has all the assembly numbers and Ferrari has all the info to learn what it is.

But Ferrari officially answers only to the owner after seeing the property documents and through their dealerships only: in few words, you have to pay them. Then you can have the assembly sheet, the building sheet or the red book: starting more or less from 1 k euro.
I would take the car to a Ferrari dealership and ask them: "Please let me know how this car came out from factory, spending the less money possible. Then I will correct the errors (if there is any) and I will apply for the red book".

Ciao

 

Looking at the cleaned off stamping, the stars are too small, and the "5" at the end is totally wrong,

But in a helpful way I will post my cars stampings as soon as possible.
I don;t have a "5" in it though

I wish I still owned 20405.....

 

Well, I do agree Alberto.

I think it is fair to say that what we "more or less" know at this stage is that:
The Body number is coherent everywhere, on all parts that have been marked, and seems coherent with the estimated date of production.
The Gearbox number is also coherent with the estimated date of production. but not coherent with the engine number.
The Engine number is NOT coherent with the gearbox number, and there is another car with the same engine number.
The Number stamped on the frame does seem to have some differences with the usual factory stampings; and three other cars have been seen at one time or another with the same chassis number; and the factory says that the body number and chassis numbers are not coherent between them.

If it is the "true, one and only" 20005, then the body is wrong; if the body is right, then it is not 20005 but "another frame, or another car"

I do not know the factory and "Classiche" as well as you do, so my only "caveat" here is this: will they be able to say what it is? Is it for them a way to ascertain the true chassis identity? Perhaps the factory, or Vaccari & Bossi, who manufactured the chassis, also had their own numbers on the chassis somewhere?

Rgds

 

Vaccari & Bosi cannot tell anything, of course, as no Ferrari supplier can tell any info about cars. I'm not sure if Classiche can solve the mistery, but if they can't then nobody can.
I share your concern, Bruno, but I think that's the only way to follow. Let's hope this car can be identified.

Ciao