SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP

Many thanks for your help and insight nerofer! In the discussions here at FC - about the blue Vetro (Forza owned?) when it was up for sale (I US) I remember that the discussion came to an end when documentation was requested? I may be wrong? And yes off course the Süsser GTO... The black/white gr 4 2015 car - is it so that this was rebodied - and the renumbered from 194/5xxx - 20005? But orginally VIN 20153? It would be great to se some official letters issued for this car!
It my car was a stolen car - originally delivered in Switzerland - isn't a bit strange that it spent most iff its life Switzerland and in that same area - Zürich, Geneva, Lausanne? Owner by a car - family that owned a big dealership? Its a puzzle.

 

Some documents:
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Tricky matter for sure. The key is somewhere in her past...I suspect that my former remark about the car crossing borders might be accurate...

Rgds[/QUOTE]

You might be right here! On the other hand it was taken out of circulation in 2001 - ref. Swiss document - when the value was at its lowest (being a youngtimer) - and then imported the year it turned 30 - which is the year (2007) it could be imported as a veteran (ex.taxes).

 

Yes it is a puzzle indeed. And very difficult to say something useful, as without proven facts, anything would be only speculation.
What is certain is that you have:
- a coherent body, with the same body number everywhere.
- an engine number which is the same as another engine in an "euro" vetroresina
- a chassis number for which there is at least one other claim (= the group IV car) and possibly some others.

The fact that a Ferrari comes from abroad is not necessarly proof of anything fishy, BUT the small numbers of Ferraris that have been tampered with, for which numbers have been altered, etc...are often exported so as to muddle the paper trail a bit more, and to dilute the history of the car as much as possible; research is then more difficult.

Perhaps you might have some luck with a swiss reader that would know a bit more...

Rgds

 

Plus this from Ferraris data base - still blue and the interior is correct. We were told that according to Ferraris DB - there hasn't been made any request about s/n 20005.


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Thanks! The important ting for me is to uncover the real stories. The car has a sept 76 chassis number - an engine from April 1977 - and it has been on the line around sept - October 1977 - maybe early spring 1977. The gearbox matches the built number. Could it be that for the engine it should have been 00877 instead of 00677 (wrongly stamped from the factory?) If so then the number would fall in sequence for built nr 682.

 

The engine sequence of install is not really "tight"......

I have thought a lot about your situation, and were it me, I would let the whole matter rest, unitl the time you wish to sell!!

Even then it's really past the times where a 5 digit VIN is readily traceable.
It's a rare and special thing about our early 308GTBs.

My 22127 was a later car, a 1977 sold into Canada.
But the engine failed under warranty.
That would also explain your "slightly later" engine number, although there were NOT a lot of known problems with those engines.

The problem units were produced later with the injected cars thru 1980 and 81.
The rings failed to seat and they became "oil burners".
That's the reason all of our pistons are used up!!

HTH.

 

...as far as the "engine number" goes, Alan, the trouble is not really that the actual number on the engine in his car is out of sequence; it is that it's the SAME ENGINE NUMBER than the one on another car (which owner I do happen to know, by the way...)
So there is something "fishy" here, but why? How? When was it done? For what? By whom?

Rgds

 

You might be right here nerofer. Fishy or not - but the car you are referring to - the French Vetro - s/n 21115 - has Built nr 681 (mine is 682).

 

Thanks! I share your viewpoints in this matter. Maybe it will be easier in a few years to sort this matters, when these cars become more valuable etc. The car is still unmolested, mechanically very original, it is confirmed blue (Acapulco or Ble Dino Metalizzato), and a Series 1, euro, dry sump, lhd (only 600 - 700 made ), all stampings look right except from the shape of the zero in the chassis plate, and still numbered s/n 20005.

 

Interesting story!

Andreas: have you found any remains of the Blue Acapulco?

I agree with Massini assesment, those numbers in the chassis frame look weird.

Ferrari would be able to tell you which chassis number had your assembly number, I believe thats your only true number.

 

Yes several places - under the carpet in the luggage compartment - on the rear fender, under the front lid etc. Massini didn't comment on the chassis plate number his focus was this; "the chassis number stamping shows that the DGM number starts at a totally wrong position. This is a RESTAMP and a FAKE".
If this was true there would be several other cars out there that are RESTAMP and FAKE...

 

I have to correct myself for mixing some numbers. The French Vetros (21125) built number is not 681. Built number 681 belongs to another car - built in September 1977.

 

I am puzzled by the fact that in these discussions about s/n 20005 - (to my knowledge) still there are no approvals and documents (official letter) in circulation - confirming authenticity. One would think that these discussions here and in Europe - in way would provoke some actions that would be confirmative.

Taking the car to Maranello seems like the only way to reveal the truth. Unless there has been given out/sold some approvals that aren't correct - and that these stand in some kind of relation to the main source.

 

Looking at the chassis

The stars either side of the "20005" seem to either be missing or barely visible (I've tried blowing the picture up, but it's still hard to tell if they're there or not)

I don't claim to be an expert on Ferrari chassis number stamping's, but I was always under the impression that the stars either side of the chassis serial number were quite prominently stamped.

The "20005" also seems very lightly stamped.

 

Here you are! Yes - it seems more shallow.
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Chassis number looks ok for a 1977 car. Everything looks real. Send it to Classiche and pay the cost to have the red book: very well spent money for your car.

Ciao

 

Sorry Alberto, but for once, in this matter I definitively disagree with you.
Andreas’ car has the same chassis number than three other cars = there are FOUR cars numbered « 20005 ».
The factory has already told Andreas that the chassis number, the body number and the engine number of his car DO NOT MATCH with their records.

Therefore, my advice to Andreas would be : « agree beforehand with « Classiche » and in writing » about what they are able, or ready, to provide...
Because my fear here is that he would spend € 3.500 or so, only to have them tell him « the numbers do not match », which he knows already.

They will NOT certify his car, this is certain (they told him so) ; the only question here is : « Will they be able to tell him what he has ? »
If the answer is NO, then no need for him to spend € 3.500 or so.

That's only my opinion, but that's my opinion.

Rgds

 

Thanks! I can spot some differences but it is difficult to tell. I guess I am colored by my own will to find the right information;9. Having said that I have also seen chassis plates with wider numbers!

 

This a very good point! I have been in Stockholm (Ferrari / Classiche approved Dep.) already - just to get one sentence - saying the numbers are not correct.

With the gas prices in Europa - the drive from Oslo til Maranello is quite a distance!

Regarding the other cars (being an amateur) ... heavily modified etc - frankly the Gr4 Black - later hvite Techno Classico Essen 2009 - later Belgium (or France) in 2015 has - what seems to me more typical stampings (the only stampings I have seen of the 3 other 20005). This car is supposedly been rebodied to a Vetro - it has a new/different engine and has been restamped(?).

The blue Vetro sold by Bobileff - is probably the same car that was for sale at eBay - by Forza (?) in 2012. This car is very interesting being also a Vtero. It has black cam covers and doble twin tip Ansa exhaust. But - again - as I mentioned earlier - it seems that the sale didn't happen and the requests for more documents was unsuccessful?

 

Hi Bruno, thank you: I didn't know this, or better, I only read on this thread there are other three cars with the same chassis number. Classiche Red Book price last year was euro 7000 euro, but I was told now it costs less (I do not guarantee this...).

But for such a car you need a Ferrari "written last word" or the car is worthless.

I read here it was red, then blu acapulco, then blu sera: the owner does need to know what it is, and only Ferrari can tell what that car is. No others, sorry.

Maybe this car has a fake chassis number, or maybe this one is correct and the others three are fake: who knows?

The chassis number and the engine number looks correct for a late 1977 car: I wouldn't bet on the exterior or the interior colors, but if you want to sell that very nice 308 drysump at its correct fullprice sooner or later, you will need an official Ferrari paper that states something. No expert can replace this! the car has all the assembly numbers and Ferrari has all the info to learn what it is.

But Ferrari officially answers only to the owner after seeing the property documents and through their dealerships only: in few words, you have to pay them. Then you can have the assembly sheet, the building sheet or the red book: starting more or less from 1 k euro.
I would take the car to a Ferrari dealership and ask them: "Please let me know how this car came out from factory, spending the less money possible. Then I will correct the errors (if there is any) and I will apply for the red book".

Ciao

 

Looking at the cleaned off stamping, the stars are too small, and the "5" at the end is totally wrong,

But in a helpful way I will post my cars stampings as soon as possible.
I don;t have a "5" in it though

I wish I still owned 20405.....

 

Well, I do agree Alberto.

I think it is fair to say that what we "more or less" know at this stage is that:
The Body number is coherent everywhere, on all parts that have been marked, and seems coherent with the estimated date of production.
The Gearbox number is also coherent with the estimated date of production. but not coherent with the engine number.
The Engine number is NOT coherent with the gearbox number, and there is another car with the same engine number.
The Number stamped on the frame does seem to have some differences with the usual factory stampings; and three other cars have been seen at one time or another with the same chassis number; and the factory says that the body number and chassis numbers are not coherent between them.

If it is the "true, one and only" 20005, then the body is wrong; if the body is right, then it is not 20005 but "another frame, or another car"

I do not know the factory and "Classiche" as well as you do, so my only "caveat" here is this: will they be able to say what it is? Is it for them a way to ascertain the true chassis identity? Perhaps the factory, or Vaccari & Bossi, who manufactured the chassis, also had their own numbers on the chassis somewhere?

Rgds

 

Vaccari & Bosi cannot tell anything, of course, as no Ferrari supplier can tell any info about cars. I'm not sure if Classiche can solve the mistery, but if they can't then nobody can.
I share your concern, Bruno, but I think that's the only way to follow. Let's hope this car can be identified.

Ciao

 

Many thanks for sharing your insights! We have been discussing possible explanations for the irregularities in the numbers since January. There are many plausible explanations - It can be a stolen car, restamped, stolen form the factory, put together in a hurry, the chassis could have been taken off the line for a repair, then re-used etc.

On very positive thing though is the fact that it is an unmolested car, very well preserved and not been in the hands of amateurs when the value of the car was at its lowest. The Gervaix family in Switzerland told me that it was very well maintained and that they not of any change of engine.
My point is that - if this was a old painting - being evaluated at a auction house - it is safer and easier to confirm authenticity - if the painting is as original as possible, compared to a painting that has been restored, parts of the canvas changed, new frame, new blind-frame etc.