Weight Lifting techniques and tips | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Weight Lifting techniques and tips

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Skidkid, Nov 19, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    My trainer shot a bit of video last night and put together a little clip on Instagram. I will post some of the stuff here later but bangged out 110 lawnmowers for 6 and +70 lb weighted dips for 6. Both at the end so the volume before was pretty big including: wide grip lat pulldowns, face pulls, wide grip seated row, pendlay rows, and a bunch of tricep stuff interlaced.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/CiuM-KOgETW/
     
  2. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Very, very nice performance. Especially pound vd pound and age factored in!
     
  3. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Thank you. As one of my first CEO friends told me "Either do it, or don't do it, but don't apologize." While the topic was different at the time, the saying has stuck with me. There is no point in 'kind of' doing something.
     
    Maximus1973 likes this.
  4. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Ties perfectly with your autograph quote.

    But yes, to add another life quote; “ people regret more the things they didn’t do versus the things they did” .
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  5. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Here is pic from the other night. My arms, shoulders, back, and core are my strongest groups. Chest is ok; old shoulder injuries have made progress slow. Legs are a work in progress. I didn't do any leg work/training until about 1.5 years ago, don't ask why (I am an idiot). But they are coming along nicely.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    anunakki and Maximus1973 like this.
  6. Scott98

    Scott98 F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2004
    2,732
    Weston, FL
    Full Name:
    Scott
    I tried weighted dips today with a 45lb plate. Got two sets of ten and one set of seven. You’ve given me something to strive for. I’m going to move up to 55lbs next time and see how it goes.
     
    Skidkid and Maximus1973 like this.
  7. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Some days I am stronger than others. You just roll with it and don't push to injury. I tend to run at a pretty fast pace too; that means I stop and I get a good cardio workout at the same time. Any given circuit is typically 3-6 different exercises, generally across 2 reciprocal muscles groups. One circuit last night:
    seated dumbbell isolation curls, standing curls w/easy curl bar (flat bar doesn't work with my tendonitis), then a core set for a moments recovery
    db curl curl bar
    20x10 50x10
    30x10 70x10
    40x10 90x10
    2 core forms stuck in here
    100x5 drop set into standing dumbbell hammer curls 25x18, more or less an amrap set

    Any given workout will have 3-4 circuits and we cover it all in about 1 hour.
     
    Scott98 likes this.
  8. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Sorry, I don't understand the above split or schedule.
    You do 20 pounds dumbell curls for 10 reps followed with 50 pound barebell cusrl for 10 reps.
    1 minute rest and then 30 pound dumbell curls followed with 70 poundbarebell curls?

    and you do this 3-4 times?

    As a finisher you do hammer culrs with 100 pounds for 5 reps or 25 pounds for 18 reps?
     
  9. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    No, you didn't understand and the spacing changed during posting so it ruined what looked like columns when I started (sorry about that).

    We pyramided up with single arm isolation dumbbell curls, dropping into standing curl with an easy curl bar. Hit a core form, this is the the 'rest'. Then back to the top of the circuit with the next set of weights. The last time through (4th in this case) we reversed the curls hitting 100 lb standing curl w/easy curl bar and dropping into 25 lb dumbbell hammer curls (the dumbbell hammers are more of a finisher). And no, I don't rest anywhere in the sequence; I keep moving at all times.

    To the 3-4 comment: this circuit is only one of several different circuits we did that day. We do 3-4 different circuits on a typical day. Of course, there is a warmup circuit when we start; I don't jump straight to heavier weights, the risk is too high. And yes, that means the volumes are very high on any given day.
     
  10. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    MAN, dumbbell hammer curls with 100s would be major league impressive. I have guns but NOTHING even close to that. I can curl 50s and on a good day, I can get maybe 3 with 60s. I can lawnmower 3 sets at 110x6 (about 90% effort) and I can shrugging 3 sets at 100x10 without going over 80% effort.

    Last night was shoulders and we hit: OHP, upright row (2 sec pause at the top), Arnold presses, heavy shrugs, elbow squeeze shoulder press (great for time under tension), lateral shoulder raise, front shoulder raise, reverse fly (dumbbells), I can't remember what else on that. These were mixed in different ways with plated obliques (to stretch out the shoulders), various core forms (we do core a lot), lat pulldowns (wide grip and narrow grip), seated row, reverse pec deck, and face pulls. We target to hit everything at least 3 sets but the sequences of any given circuit is different from workout to workout so it stays pretty interesting. And yes, all of that fits in just over an hour but you have to keep moving ALL of the time.
     
  11. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Dang, that is a lot of volume!
    Are you recovering from that?
     
  12. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Now you know why we dropped to 4 days a week, I needed a bit more recovery. But yes, I do recover and surprisingly fast. I really only have sore muscles when we do drop sets where you keep doing the same exercise to near failure, drop for another set to failure, drop ... That gets to a point where you can't even move the lightest of weights. We also often finish with amrap sets (as many reps as possible) at a light weight. It varies but there is a weight that is the 'infinite weight', the weight you could do infinite reps. Run that for 20 or so reps at the end and the pump is significant.

    You can see how I went from the pudgy dude 5 years ago to where I am now. Commitment, consistency, and pushing the limits. The gains are in that last couple of reps. The ones where you battle to get it done. That pushes the limit higher, everything before that is warmup. :)

    By the way, those 100 lb shrugs are dumbbells. On the shrug machine I shrug sets of 10 at 500+ and I can do the same with 315+ on the Olympic bar. I actually don't know my max for a set, at some point it just doesn't matter.
     
  13. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    To be fair, my trainer is always working to slow me down a bit. He tells me he plans 2x the circuits for me that he does for anyone else. He also says he couldn't keep up with my pace, but he is a lot stronger than I am. If I was 25-30 and shooting for max strength I would have to adjust. At 61, the pace is good for cardio and I already know there are limits I don't want to go over because of the risk of injury. Let's face it, there are limits on what your joints will tolerate for a max lift.
     
  14. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Well, I’m simply trying to piece together how your sessions work out in terms of actual sets per body part.
    Bit tough if I may ask…
    There are some general ‘ guidelines’ on overall volume per body part that the industry seems as average weekly volume.
    However everything also depends on what actual working sets are.
    Some people also count warm up sets as work sets.
    Anything below 60% of your max set weight is considered a warm up.
    However when people tend to add to much war up sets, we start to call them ‘ junk sets’ .
    You’re not warming up but you are fatiguing the muscle but not in an efficient way.
    Those junk sets eat up energy stores without the benefits from them.

    Yes, the last few reps is where the meat and potatoes of any exercise is. You should focus on those indeed.

    There is ample research that one doesn’t always need to go to failure. In fact some research shows that not going to failure yields the same results as going to failure. However total workload should be adjusted as well.

    In short do as much as you feel like you can recover from!
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  15. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,475
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    Good info in this thread.
    The biggest hurdle many have I think is the mental connection to each muscle. It's more then just lifting/pressing a weight, so much more. Feeling out and knowing your limit, pushing just a touch beyond. Concentrating on that connection and forcing recruitment, sometimes explosively and sometimes with slow determination.
    I personally couldn't get into hypertrophic training and drifted into power lifting back in the 90's and kinda stuck there up till last yr. After going thru joint and tendon pain that limited the real heavy lifting I had to re-evaluate what I was going to do. So I researched and switched up to a program that was more hypertrophic then what I was used to, figured I'd run it 6 months on then cycle to power lifting for 6 months. It's been almost 18 months and I haven't switched back to a power lifting routine yet. I took one month after the 6 on and my joints said WTH man! I did run a PR and was happy to find, no setbacks and one new goal. Strict military press of my BW.

    As with all posts.. Pics.
    The workout, that's the first week, it's 4wks with each one progressing in weight and some sets/reps 5th is deload with more cardio.
    I also cycle 50+miles a week.

    Before starting point, 275lb for reference that's my oldest on his 18th bday, he's 5'10" & 155lb.
    Next is 6 months later at 260, then last is June @ 270.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    JJ, Maximus1973 and Skidkid like this.
  16. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    You look great. I never had that kind of build; I was always long and lanky. In 6th grade I was already 6' tall and starting high school I was 6' 4" and 127 lb. I had so little muscle mass I could hardly control my physical structure. When I graduated I was 6' 6" 175 lb and probably 8% body fat; yep, still a bit of a stick bug but also a ripped stick bug. :)
     
    smg2 likes this.
  17. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,475
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    Yeah, the taller one gets the lankier some get. Genetics really, lucky sperm club. Genetically I'm Scottish and Scandinavian, possibly why most everyone in my family is built like giant tanks. Also a high predisposition to just gaining weight. Strong and fat. At 6'4" I'm the short one, everyone else is 6'6" to 6'10". Thinnest I ever was was 185@18, looked like I survived a starvation prison stint. introduced to lifting and proper protein consumption and bam like a switch the muscle packed on, shockingly easy compared to my lifting buddies at the time.

    Then I go and marry a little Sicilian and have normal sized kids. My youngest is wiry and strong but only 5'10", he wants to bulk but I'm not sure he'll really fill out as he and his brother are like their mom, petite and thin.
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  18. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Great build indeed and congrats for sicking to the program.

    If I can be sol bold on commenting…… few pointers:
    I trust you don’t follow this exact routine for 6 months straight without any changes. If you do, time to switch it up.
    Ideally you make small changes each and every workout. Could be changing exercises,add more or decrease volume, change reps ranges, etc.

    Major focus point would be on your total shoulder voluem, it’s a LOT.
    The first few days you train shoulders every day without a break. When you train chest, shoulders are also heavy involved.
    Same with front and side shoulders, you always tend to work both. It’s nigh on impossibble to fully isolate each shoulder head.
    Try to give your shoulders a bit more rest as it’s a delicate muscle group that;s prone to injury.

    But as always, how you’ feel’ is always the most important factor.
     
  19. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,475
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    Thanks, yes there's indeed change due to adaptation. Each week is progressive in reps or sets and even weight. Over the decades I've found that my adaptation rate is around 4.5 months, I can either increase volume or weight significantly or just change the lift to a variation. So that's what I do around month 5. Always a change, some minor others a touch more aggressive. It's funny because there's some lifts I get fond of and miss when they're out of rotation. And there's a few that are just too good and mesh perfectly with firing off the muscle that I don't switch them up, so I'll just change load and volume.

    Compound lifts are more restrictive and there's only so many variations of them. Isolation though... Loads of options as I'm sure you know.

    Funny the routine doesn't hit me as shoulder loaded. Though that might have to do with how I set myself up for this 30odd yrs ago. 18, downhill racing single track and endo'd right into a tree going a good 35mph... ER doc said I would have been better off breaking bones. Instead I pulled my left shoulder right out and tore the tendons. At the time my dad was doing PT for an industrial injury and the staff their said once you're out of the sling let's help you out. Doc said I'd forever have shoulder problems, PT said, yeah if you do nothing about it. Thus began my trek into shoulder work to avoid future issues. Now I find that if I go a week or two without workout my shoulder starts to bug.

    My old power lifting routine had massive shoulder volume compared to this one oddly. Sometimes I find that I'll add in a couple extra isolations for side and rear delt work.

    Feedback is King. I feel like I've got a decent connection to each muscle group for firing off. But sweet Jesus the body builder crowd is a whole nother level! I tried the posing once with a body builder yrs ago, humbling really. Lifting can be tough, posing... That's the next level in the circle of hell.

    You're right, we all have to find what works best for us individually. No idea how one who's a personal trainer gets that across to a client. Took me a couple yrs to really feel that feedback and know what works and what doesn't.

    Like you said, the routine is shoulder dominant. For me it's not a big deal, however I'm aware of the fact that due to decades of shoulder focus they tend to step in and carry the load. The day where is listed as bench then press, I flip that and start with press to fatigue the shoulders so that when it's bench time the pecs can step in, but to really hit the pecs I've got to focus on flys and pushups, otherwise the old shoulders just butt in and go "we got this bro".

    I cycle in a variation of wendlers 531 for 8wks no deload after 5 months of the above hyper program.

    Oh and I do keep a training log/journal, have for decades to track weight progression, missed lifts etc.. so no two weeks are ever the same. If you're not scribbling notes are you even lifting?
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  20. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Have a look at your plan:
    Monday: Chest and front and side delts.
    Tuesday: front+ side delats
    Wednesday + Thursday: rest for shoulders/chest
    Friday: Chest + side laterals
    Saturday: side laterals
    Sunday: weighted pull ups (which also do put some strain on your laterals.
    So in total that's nearly 5 days of putting stress on your shoulder region.
    IMHO that's too much stress on a sensitive region.

    Same appliesmto biceps. You do them on Monday and Tuesday.
    Try to add them on back days when you already have them warmed up from back.
    OR create a seperate arm day.

    Again, we're all build differently, but I would decrease the volume and sprinkle additional volume elsewhere.

    Your routine is pretty darn hardcore and kudos for puting oin the work aka volume.
    Seems like you're pretty serious about this!

    Some other additional pointers:
    1. When training various muscle groups, try to put exercises togetehr for each muscle.
    Example on Monday your routine starts with chest, moves to shouklders, to triceps, then back to chest, traps (all of a sudden) back to shoulders.
    You even sprinkle in some bicep work on that day.

    In short, you are pumping blood in all the time and everywhere.
    It would be more efficient to focus on one muscle group first and then move elsewhere as these are not antagonist muscles.
    (Meaning you can do biceps - triceps alternating or back - chest)
    So do your chest work first, do shoulders afterwards and finish with triceps. Skip the traps and biceps and put those in with your back day.

    BTW a truly great personal trainer can easy see within a 1-2 sessions where your weakness lie and what you should focus on.
    Problem is, 99% of trainers are crap (sorry).

    if you have shoulder issues, you should decrease front shoulder work and focus more on supporting exercises.
    I was forced to do the same. Loved doing front barebells presses that nearly matched my barebell presses. Fast forward 30 years later and I start to realize I should do things smarter... but hey, we were all young at some stage.

    I'm not always a fan of Jeff Cavaliere, but he does have some great exercises for shoulder health, just like John Meadows has.
    Facepulls, (if done correctly!) and over and back are great staples.

    Muscle adaptation is waaaayy quicker than 4-5 months, it's a matter of week to week mroe or less; especially when you are experienced.
    You should make more frequent changes; especially when you are using a log book.
    But those changes don't need to be that big, small changes do matter a lot.
    Try to ramp up volume each week and cut back in 8-12 weeks or when you feel you need to.

    One of the best tips I can give to anyone going to the gym is "feel the weight and the movement". Weight is just a tool that is often meaningless.
    I have friends that look like they barely can move around yet bench 400 pounds and other whom look like they can bench press 500 pounds and can't get to 300. Power lifting and body building/muscle building/fitness are two seperate things that require a completely different approach.
    The first focusses on moving the weight from point A to B.
    With the later we (SHOULD!) focus on moving thew weight between point A and B.
    There is no start or end position. What you do in between matters the most as that's wherer muscle stress/growth lies.

    Anything else you'd like to focus specifially on, like muscle building, getting leaner, stronger, bigger arms, etc?
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    15,475
    Dumpster Fire #31
    Full Name:
    SMG
    I think we're on the same page but I'm not articulating well. I see that it's heavy on shoulders, though coming from previous yrs of lifting it's to me 'light' on shoulders. But I'm always open to new things and changing it up. I've got nothing against getting bigger, though I'm told I'm intimidating enough already. Completely natty so there's a natural limit. My thing was after 30yrs of heavy lifting for strength and speed i didn't want to end up injured and broken down as time kept it's onslought moving forward. I didn't think I looked strong given the extra padding of just fat bulk and figured I should lean it out and at least look like I spend time in the gym. I had set a goal back in my 20's to hit 1k on the big 3, then 1200 before 30, I managed to hit 1630 @ 280 at 38, and now a decade later i'm sure that it's dropped a fair amount. I track my PR's and have noticed a flat line in the last couple yrs. 5 yrs ago I wanted to strict press my body weight, that was a grueling few yrs of lifting to hit 275 with no leg drive. I guess that's a long way of saying I'm more interested in composition changes these days.

    The listed routine is not exactly what I've programmed in, that was an example. take the first day, I don't go thru that in that order. I like to do compound lifts first then hit the accessory isolation ones. I also have switched the press to first. The rows are supersets with curls and I use heavy bands instead of dumbells as I like the slower pace and concentration thru the lift.

    The biceps get hit 4 days directly and all days indirectly. Day 4 on back, pulls ups are neutral grip.

    As to progression, each week the lifts increase in weight and sets/reps from 1st to 4th week with 5th being deload in volume using week 1 weight. Progression is based on hitting or missing reps. If I hit the set/rep count it goes up a bit, if I can't then it either drops back to previous and I increase the rep count till i can push forward again. Obviously there's a wall, infinite progression would be fantastic. So I then have other modifiers, rest time, rep time, super setting. rest/pause, super slow. When I mentioned variation it was for example like this, deads. one month it's traditional barbel, the next month it'll be hexbar and I might sprinkle in a week of sumo here and there. squats, same deal; just below parallel, ATG, box, etc..
     
  22. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Oh the joys of ‘ talking’ online. One never get’s the ‘ tone’ right and one might end up saying the same thing with just different words!

    OK, good to hear as you sure know what you’re doing.
    I would also cut back your bicep work. The elbow is, together with the shoulder girdle, a very, very sensitive area. tendonitis can set in quickly and is a b!tch to recover from.
    I would either suggest a separate day for biceps and triceps to really hammer them with pump work and drop the volume on back days.
    Or drop a few sets on your backs days for them as 4 days per week really is taxing; especially when you are natural.
    Doing biceps in a super set together with rows is a hazard. There is a reason why hardly anyone does that. The strain on your biceps from the rows is there as you are handling big loads, but when you add isolation work in there you stretch the biceps even more. The next set of rows your biceps are prone to injury.
    Little know fact is that a very large % of biceps tears occur dring back work, not during direct work.

    Well, if you managed a total of 1200, you are indeed no joke! As pics clearly prove. Respect.
    Changing your appearance is mostly due to diet as you know.
    Changing the workout routine has limited effect on composition; especially since yours is predominantly focused on muscle growth.
    Doing high volume reps has little effect on body composition.

    When you are 6,4” you do have to look at certain exercises that may or may not ‘ work’ for you. Typically dumbell presses are ‘ beter’ for taller people as barbell presses. Same with legpress vs squats. Again, personal preferences but leverages also start to matter.
    But you also already understood that some exercises you ‘ feel’ more then others. It’s not wrong to focus more on those vs things to cause discomfort or pain.

    So keep up the god work, toss out some empty calories and you’re on your way sir!
     
    smg2 and Skidkid like this.
  23. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    #223 Skidkid, Nov 6, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2022
    So many points here. Tendonitis is a tough one; experience speaking. I don't do curls with a straight bar, it just isn't good for me. I use an zig-zag or easy curl bar and that is fine. I started using versa grips for heavier pulls and/or straps (depends on the form), it takes a lot of load off the tendons because the grip is a lot easier. Over time, it has gotten much better and is no longer a daily issue. BUT I still use straps or grips for heavier pulls because the injuries just aren't worth it. NOTE: I have also dislocated both elbows & one knee, torn a bicep, and damaged one shoulder. Fortunately, those are all long enough ago that they are as normal/recovered as they will ever get. BUT, recovery from them is a long road.

    And yes, being tall definitely impacts lifts. My dumbbell bench is about the same as my barbell bench; I am reasonably convinced it has a lot to do with the pathing I can do with dumbbells vs a bar. I do squats pretty well but legpress over 2x that amount.
     
  24. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula 3

    Oct 29, 2016
    1,358
    Sure thing, a straight bar has zero benefits compared to an EZ Bar for most bicep/tricep work.
    And yes, tendonitis is one of the first things that sets in with older athletes and it’s a lot of cases permanent, so avoid at all cost.

    The longer the are, the longer the bar has to travel from A to B. Since we’re all not perfectly aligned, those small indifferences add up with a longer bar path.
    Hence why dumbell presses tend to work beter for longer athletes. Also why top bench presses are in general shorter.
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  25. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Skipping a longer story, I have been off for about 3 weeks. Hit the gym hard this week. I loved it but WOW; I am paying penance for those skipped weeks. No loss in strength is obvious but seriously sore in pretty much every muscle group. Of course it didn't help that we killed it every day. For example: We were doing Pendlay Rows at 185, not too hard for me. He says should we go up? I say sure, how about 205. His response was how about 225. Like an idiot, I agreed. He couldn't do one clean; it was out of range for him. I managed 2 clean and the 3rd was a bit sloppy. Of course that makes those muscles VERY sore. Then again, every muscle in my body is sore except the lower back, it is great. So no injuries and lower back feels great, no harm no foul. A day or two of recovery and I will feel great again. For today, I am going to relax and bemoan my sore muscles. OK, and probably drink a bit too. ;)
     

Share This Page