348 handling

yes, as mentioned by someone else the black car is an original F355, and the red car is an original 348TS. Thank you for the kind words.

One note on the Wikipedia article you quoted, I also have 3 early NSX cars, a 91, 92, and 93. Everyone please don’t hate me but I think the NSX (with larger wheels and simple spring swap) handles better and more predictably than my particular 348 with challenge rims, but the targa roof of the 348 should be considered here. A more fair comparison would be a 348 TB I think.

 

manual steering

 

Very interesting. It's a complex topic. Different cars can understeer or oversteer in different situations. One I don't find intuitive (but it doesn't apply here) is the understeer you can get in some RWD rear engine cars if you apply too much gas leaving the front axle unloaded because the engine is hanging behind the rear axle. The same car can oversteer if you approach the same corner differently on the gas pedal, losing the rear end. Sometimes it's not like a particular car is oversteering or understeering, it can be both (or none, of course).

I remember having seen a 348 made to look like a F355 for sale in the past. It made sense to me because personally I like it old and simple but the looks of the F355 are very appealing. But yes, looking at your car again, it looks too exactly like a F355 not to be one.

Wow, this is really interesting. It says a number other things. One I found odd is they didn't like the sound of the 348 that much and they seem to find the sound of the NSX engine almost as good as that of the 348. Considering what each of them have under their hood, that is so unlikely.

I love it.

Thanks, all!!

 

The sound of an NSX is really pretty lame compared to a stock 348, even with various aftermarket exhausts on the NSX. Put a Capristo on a 348 and the comparison is not even close!

 

Really great thread topic btw Alex!

 

I was driving the old lady this morning ('60s Renault 8) and I like not only unassisted steering, also unassisted brakes. The best braking car I've owned (that's this Ultima with superb AP Racing brakes all around) had unassisted brakes and they were dependable, reassuring and powerful.

I would've never thought otherwise, I was shocked to read these odd considerations ¿?

Oh, thanks so very much. You guys make it valuable, I can only be grateful. I know from years of being a car enthusiast that first time impressions can be misleading and, in the end, most articles and videos are based on test drives (other than factual figures). In that respect, comments from enthusiasts who have spend many hours behind the wheel of a particular model (and often times other similar enough models too) are very valuable to me. From that perspective, you specifically are a gem, ha ha! Thanks and I wish you enjoy the awesome rides for many years to come.

These cars are expensive and their market is narrow, you wouldn't want to buy one and then realise it's not the car for you

 

One of the tricks I used when doing HPDEs is that as you dial in steering, dab on the brakes a bit harder and the car will turn in, on braking, allowing you to only use ½ as much steering as "normal". This puts you is a much better position when it comes to mashing the throttle at apex and catching the oversteering back end (since the steering wheel does not have to move as much.)

I wrote a 30 page article 15-18 years ago on F355 handling with 348 as a small sub section.

 

Yes! A great example related to the point I'm trying make. On the track, people do that all the time in front engine, FWD cars. And the thing is, these cars are considered naturally understeer cars in the sense that their front weight will try to keep going straight as you try to steer. But making them oversteer is easier than with other cars because the rear axle has little load.

It's a complex topic. Plenty of desirable and not so desirable effects. My Ultima for example was very good and very neutral in most situations, but it did have significant lift-off oversteer.

Wow :O I presume that was long ago. Is it available at all?

 

I raced a 348. The chassis is very tunable. I never found the rear subframe issue to matter on track. The challenge guys did not either since a later 348 challenge was not faster than an early 348 challenge.

 

Send me an e-mail

 

Any track use I may do would be a track day from time to time, but it's really interesting to read your race experience because race is the only situation where you don't really stay away from the limits with good margin.

Thanks, but I can't find your details on your profile page and I can't find private messaging on the forum either.

I was about to write my contact details here but then I remembered that this particular forum allows editing for a short while only... I wouldn't want that to stay there forever

I've written my mobile number (Whatsapp) and email on my profile page, field "About You", can you see that info? Thanks!

 

Point of my post is it doesn't matter especially at street speeds.

 

If only there were a site where you could pose a question such as "Mitch Alsup e-mail address" and get an instant reply......

There are probably 10^100 places like that.....

 

I feel most people who want to criticize the handling of the 348 have never driven one, do not have the talent to manage a well designed and balanced rear mid engine car on the limit. Sure, it will react quickly in certain conditions, it might catch you out if you're not used to driving such a car.
I've driven mine on the limit, and a little bit beyond, I do come from a motorsport background, and I found the 348 a very well balanced car which is incredibly satisfying to drive, it gives so much!!
In normal driving, you will never come even close to getting into trouble in a 348.....

 

My 348 seems to have more to give than I'm willing to take. I had to gas it pretty hard to get the back end to snap out. I'm sure the 355 is incredible, but are the early the 348s really that different? The 348 already is breaking my fun meter, and in my opinion is one of the best looking cars ever made. The simplicity of the build is also incredibly attractive to me. With the help of Ricambi and people like Ferrarium I can do almost all the basic stuff myself. Best of the old school feel. The transition from analog to digital; a moment in time that will never exist again.
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That is pretty independent of 348 vs F355 suspension.

The change in upper A-Arm angles alters the transition from grip-to-spin, making the later ones more "progressive" or "easier to read"

That is the early cars had more of grip->grip->grip->spin
Whereas the later 348s and F355s had more grip->slip->slide->spin
It is easier to read what the car is trying to tell you with the later, a top notch driver can get a little more out of the car with the former.
Once you learn the "profile" of the transition from grip->spin of a given car, it is fairly easy to have significant fun with the car without taking any real risks. It is just easier to come to grips with the later than the former.

 

Also realize that 30 years on, tires are WAAAAY better than they were in the early 90s.

sjd

 

I loved the picture and your words.

I don't even have plans to take it to the track, let alone drive hard on the road in terms relative to the car capability, so I'm not concerned about losing its back end. I take it easy these days, even on the track, for which I have a bike engined Sylva Striker (one of these Seven-esque kit cars).

I concur that the 348 is among the most beautiful cars ever made. I'm very attracted to simplicity too. In fact it's my motto in life, professionally and personally.

Anyway, thanks for your post, it was nice and inspiring.

Then it seems to me that the latter is better for the road and, if anything, the former may be better provided that racing is what you do. I totally get your explanation. One thing I love about my humble MX-5 mk1 is how progressive and forgiving it is. It will allow a degree of stupidity, which on the track enables progressive improvement of your skills with minimum frustration. The 348 is a different thing altogether, but I get the idea.

 

I remember the first time I understood what power on over steering really was: I was in my F355 in turn "Big Bend" at MSR Cresson, looking out my passenger rear view mirror, watching the passenger rear tire throwing off a light haze of smoke. The angle of the steering wheel was not telling me I was oversteering, it was the haze from the tire !! I was only about 10º sideways and in complete comfort.

Progression is the major difference between my F355 and my Corvette:: the Vette was very much a grip->grip->grip-snap spin; whereas the F355 is a grip->slip->slide->slow spin->snap spin. The F355 has always surprised me as to how it exits and reenters the realm of grip. The Vett stuttered as the tires let go and as the car regained grip, the F355 did not have any such nonsense exiting and entering the realm of grip.

 

Yes, recovering grip is very interesting too. I learnt that many years ago as I totalled a car in a roundabout. I was in control with much oversteering and then bang, the back caught grip suddenly which made the car go where the steering wheel was telling it to go. I felt very ashamed of myself, so that was a turning point for me.

Re. your words on the F355, I think what you're describing is what's known as good handling. Ultimately, it's not to do with how capable the car is.

 

I raced my C5Z06 and raced my 348 wheel to wheel. I found the opposite. I bought converted and raced a 2019 mustang GT and did not like the handling. I sold it and bought back another C5Z06 and it's conversion to racecar should be done before X-mas.

 

Yes, Sir!

There seems to be substantial progress even in much more compressed time line.