Is this the Italian Job Miura ? | Page 15 | FerrariChat

Is this the Italian Job Miura ?

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by eb911, Jun 11, 2014.

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  1. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Joe,

    I was not referring to that accident, well known, but to the one in 1967 while coming back from his R&D loop (Paso de la Futa & moutains, new autostrada) where he avoided another car crossing the road just when he was passing.
     
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  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Are you saying that sometimes a new car would be made with the old Production or Bertone Body number which would not be entered in the register and sometimes with a new Production/Bertone Body number which was entered in the register as in the case of 3072?
     
  3. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Correct, the client who was not wondering to pay by check, bank transfer, bill of payment but with cash from his suitcase...

    Taking a car out of the production line wasn't usual but it happened.

    That car was then replaced... the 1st one was a ghost... on the other side, a car fully paid officially was leaving tracability like #3072...

    An example ? I know it is a late number : #5100... I have inspected both cars , the 2nd one which was delivered in Germany replaced the original car taken from the production line... but it illustrates how it was.
     
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  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    I understood 5100 to have no actual history of being a replaced car, and was never an SVJ. May I ask your understanding of the relationship between 4956, 5092 and 5100 as it is very confusing?
     
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  5. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Well, it has nothing to do in this thread, but #4956 was belonging to Lansberg (which was the 2nd SV with a dry sump like #4878 - post production).

    Lansberg's SV was wrecked - I'm not here to describe who/how it was destroyed - he had his car replaced by a new one with the #4956 VIN tag welded on the frame to avoid to pay taxes like if it was a new one...

    Later it was discovered under the tag plate the replacement SV was #5100... I saw that car in Paris several times since 2010...

    I saw in 2017 another SV bearing the same VIN #5100, post delivered compared to the SV of the same production batch, so clearly when the 1st one was selected to replace the wrecked #4956, another SV #5100 was ordered to Bertone, the car which was for sale in Germany.

    All this to illustrate the factory way of doing sometimes business in period.
     
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  6. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It happened, those were different times, as a certain factory-affiliated gentleman once said: "if one more appears, nobody should get upset".
     
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  7. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #357 Olivier NAMECHE, Dec 9, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022

    Here is the answer...

    Thus, engine and VIN tag removed from crashed #3072 by Grace Bumbry, fitted on a brand new body #372/prod #272 - delivered 27th december 1968.

    Following Moruzzi multiple declarations on this specific matter, all this swap was already done end of March/April when Paramount bought the wrecked Miura...

    My conclusion is #3072 original chassis/cabin is not the "ravine donor" Miura... because the accident of the original #3072 happened after summertime 1968 or at least the car transfer to the factory to be repaired before salvaged, happened in this period : september-october 1968.


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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Thanks for confirming that engine #1220, that was carried over from 3072 (Prod #43), is still in 3072 (Prod #272). I'm not saying you're wrong, but may I ask how you know that the accident of the original 3072 (#43) happened after summertime 1968?
     
  9. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    We agree on Enzo's declaration (because he also mentioned to me), that the engine and VIN tag were already removed from the wrecked car - "Ravine donor" end of March 1968 to be fitted in a new car...

    This fact confirms, that new Miura was already present at the factory and probably on the production line under "surgical transfert" of engine and VIN tag....

    Looking in Ingrid's list, you can analyse the Prod numbers and the delivery dates, thus you can easily deduct the sequence and dates.

    Prod #0272 and its sister were in the same production sequence in october 1968, but #0272 has delivery delayed to 27th december...

    How do you explain that a Miura under construction with its donor engine and VIN tag end of March/April would be only delivered 27th december ?

    How do you explain that a Miura under construction with its donor engine and VIN tag end of March/April would have Prod #272 from october sequence ?

    I also cannot imagine a wrecked Miura brought to the factory in Q1 to be repaired, declared salvaged and waiting 6 months to be ressurected for 27th december 1968, client support was much quicker than that.

    How the factory would sell a wrecked car belonging to a customer ?

    The factory has sold the wrecked car because it was belonging to it.

    That deal was already consumed with that client or or... this is more what I do believe, this Miura was a car wrecked "by the factory" and the factory was in a hurry to fulfil the order in order to deliver the car to the client waiting for a postponed delivery enf of Marsh/April... and thus the factory owned that wrecked Miura the future "Ravine donor".
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Sure. Again, not saying you're wrong, but it's speculation, just as I'm only speculating that 3072 #43 could be the ravine IJ car. There may be a number of reasons the delivery of 3072 #272 was not until 27.12.68. Perhaps Grace Bumbry and her husband Andreas Jaeckel were not able to take delivery until 27.12.68 as she may have been touring or something which again is just speculation. Miura chassis 3727 production number 251 was not delivered until 7.1.69. Remember the delivery/consignment date is just that, and is not the completion of the build date at the factory which may have been months before.
     
  11. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    this is why I told you the prod sequence was in october... and delivered later in december... so definitevely not a prod sequence in Q1 1968

    I call this analysis and not speculation
     
  12. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    I don't know how from your analysis that it can actually be concluded that the production sequence of prod #272 was in October, 68 when the adjoining production numbers were actually delivered in September, 68, October, 1968 and one in December, 68. For a number of reasons the build of production #272 at Bertone may not have started until a few months after the Film Production Company bought the wreck in March/April, 68.
     
  13. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    if you read me again, I wrote at first september-October.

    One question for you : do you have and read Ingrid Pussich list ?
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    I have the list in Joe's Miura Bible.
     
  15. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #365 Olivier NAMECHE, Dec 9, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    That there is no rhyme or reason to the list that I can work out. What does it teach you?
     
  17. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    We know that Bertone was producing by 10, 20 then 50 units batch before the 100 units in 1970

    Production was a loop : Marchessi, Silver Car, Bertone, Lamborghini

    The Bertone production numbers were delivered chronologically...

    The table shows you prod #253 is already delivered by 9th september, thus you will agree that prod #272 can't be delivered from Bertone to Lamborghini before that early date in september.

    And prod #274 was already delivered 10th October 1968.

    Conclusion, prod #272 was in that sequence : september - October, but delivered later in December.

    Because the list shows us that fact, you can imagine it was not possible to be the car that was wrecked in Q1 1968 for which Enzo Moruzzi mentioned to everybody the same story : "the tag VIN and engine were removed to be in another client car".... this is not speculation but fact analysis... then I invite you to make the same analysis for Q4 1967 and for Q1 1968... the truth is probably there...
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It teaches us that the factory were still making Miuras well into 1973.
     
  19. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    :D ... and delivery in 1973...
     
  20. simpen

    simpen Formula Junior

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    Looking around on the same website, and more particular 194 and 188, it seems these do not have the 100 added to the body number? Does this tell anything about the timeline of completion? Something along the lines of "185 was the first to have 100 added to the body number, but 184 was not the last to have Bertone = production number"?
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #371 miurasv, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
    A few others after Bertone Production Number 185 do not have the extra 100 added either. Seems to be consistent from Production number 196. @miuranut, does the chassis plate state 185 or 285? miura-svj.com states 185 as the Bertone number for chassis number 3513.

    Prod 188.
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    Production 191.
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    Production 194. Not sure if plate is original.
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  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    They couldn't have just swapped the vin tag as the 3072 Production #272 vin tag has a different production number on it, #372, and the original one would have had #43.
     
  23. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    sorry for mispelling and if it induced you into error.

    I meant the VIN plate welded on the frame, never meant the aluminium plate riveted which obviously is different as my picture is showing the new Bertone #prod...
     
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  24. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Ah, ok.
     
  25. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    It is the factory aluminium plate, but it seems to not be the original one of the car, as this one doesn't have the correct stamp letters...
     

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