Is this the Italian Job Miura ? | Page 16 | FerrariChat

Is this the Italian Job Miura ?

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by eb911, Jun 11, 2014.

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  1. miuranut

    miuranut Rookie

    Jun 22, 2012
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    That website has numerous errors in the text, including that for 185. Best to rely only upon the photographs, provided they show period ID stamp characters : as Olivier points out some photos show non-period stamp characters, and cannot necessarily be relied upon.

    The Miura bodies carry many components made by Bertone and stamped by them with the body number to which they are fitted. When 185 was stripped for restoration the components were photographed. My post #330 shows for example even the boot catch mechanism is stamped 285.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Chassis #3513 Prod #185.

    So everything stamped 285 including the chassis vin plate?
     
  3. miuranut

    miuranut Rookie

    Jun 22, 2012
    27
    Correct, except I recall one piece of door trim was stamped 298, destined for Miura 198 which was in production at the same time and mixed up by "Luigi" during final fitting ! Not unusual.
     
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  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #379 miurasv, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
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  5. eb911

    eb911 Karting

    Dec 3, 2009
    92
    Sorry for my late contribution, I have just read the last 5 pages of the thread and found it very entertaining.

    Back on the color subject, I guess there is not a single doubt that #3586 has always been Arancio Miura as demonstrated by the build sheet pictures posted by Olivier.

    When I first met David Salomone in early 2014, we discussed the color "issue" as he brought me the Hasselblad picture. I remember that he thought the crashed car had been repainted to match the color of the driving car. He had absolutely no evidence of that, that just seemed logical to him, and to me too. It would seem easier to respray a crashed body to match the color of a new car than finding a new car matching the color of a crashed body, especially when this color was pretty rare or even unknown at that time (if #3586 was the first Arancio Miura ever then the crashed car could not be Arancio, right ?).

    David Salomone was responsible for the supply of the cars for the movie except the Miura unfortunately. I remember he mentioned some cars had been resprayed for the needs of the shooting (can't remember which) so it is not crazy to think the crashed Miura had been resprayed at some point.

    Also the screenplay did mention an orange Miura, and my guess is that it would have been very unlikely to find a crashed Miura painted orange. We never know but very unlikely nevertheless.

    Again this is pure speculation and I have no evidence to support that theory, but I would not be surprised if we discover sooner or later that the crashed Miura was not originally orange or even not Rosso Miura.
     
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  6. eb911

    eb911 Karting

    Dec 3, 2009
    92
    #381 eb911, Dec 31, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
    The color of #3586 has always been a sensitive subject, as very often during my research the idea of #3586 being the Italian Job Miura was quickly turned down by many claiming that the car was red on the screen and not orange. Well, we have already covered the subject extensively and we now know that #3586 is definitely Arancio Miura.

    I post here under few pictures of the car when I first inspected it in March 2013 and few pictures just after it was delivered in our premises in Paris. Even on these pictures and depending on light and angles, the color appears different although always orange.


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  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Color aside, again I raise a glass to you guys for identifying a car that everyone was looking for whilst it existed right under our very noses.

    Bottom line, you did your homework, others didn't, a now-legendary automotive story.

    Here's to a healthy & prosperous 2021!
     
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  8. Lemacc

    Lemacc Formula 3
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    Mar 16, 2008
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    I inspected the car in October 2016 in Italy.
     
  9. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    which shows the last respray wasn't of top quality.... respray also mentionned in SK file https://www.kidston.com/motorcars/2387-1968-Lamborghini-Miura-P400/
     
  10. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #385 Olivier NAMECHE, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
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  11. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

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    Basel or Bâle in French, my Home Town ;)
     
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  12. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #387 Olivier NAMECHE, Jan 22, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
    Yesterday night, Rémy Julienne passed away... despite the fact he was not present for the record sequences with the stuntmen in June 1968, he was the "head" who controlled by distance the sequence with the production team. RIP.


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  13. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #388 Olivier NAMECHE, Apr 4, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022
  14. eb911

    eb911 Karting

    Dec 3, 2009
    92
    An interesting interview of Iain Tyrrell has just been released on YT here :

    Of course, one of the main subject is the Italian Job Miura. I don't like to be the guy who is pissed off, but I have to say I am.
    I hope Iain is with us here and will read my post.

    To make a long story short, I think his account of the Italian Job Miura story in this interview is a bit baised to put it nicely, and sometimes too close to complete ********.

    I think humbleness is a great quality, but being silent doesn't mean being dumb and sometimes things have to be said.
    In this interview we can see Iain shouting he is enjoying himself while driving #3586, well it seems he also greatly enjoyed himself recollecting how he came to buy the Miura, and at that time in his words "joining the dots which nobody did before him." Honestly, this is more embarrassing for Iain than annoying for me, but again, this claim is nothing short of outrageous.

    The way Iain puts this, he came to our garage after being called by a Lamborghini broker and while nobody had any idea of what the car could have been, he made extensive researches within few days before coming to Paris, and was able to confirm this was the Italian Job Miura. What a magic trick !
    He also points out that he spent countless hours of researching the history and was able, he and himself, to confirm that it was the right car. He actually bought a Miura for much more than the then current value of a P400, but he had to do all the job by himself afterwards to confirm it was the car. A bit risky, right ? Well, enough of this.

    What Iain did, is that he had the balls to buy #3586 for a very high price (compared to the then market), did a very good PR work around the car and was able to flip it for twice the price he paid (in his own words in the video).

    He did so much work to research the history of #3586, that the documents he shows on the video are my documents, with my research on the stiching and holes in the interior ! Because yes, I am proud to say I spent 18 months researching the history, and proving #3586 was the car and nobody can question that.

    Iain also says he finally managed to identify 3 orange Miura and only one with a white leather interior built in 1968. Let me just point out that this extensive research leading to that outstanding conclusion could have been done 30 years ago. No need to wait for me to spent hours in front of my screen looking at the movie in slow motion to finally decide that there could have been only one car being the Italian Job Miua because of its color combination.

    He also points out a prominent Swiss dealer had the car for sale and had no clue what the car was. Well, just like him before he read my files and came to see #3586 in our premises.

    I already proved #3586 was the Italian Job Miura, and posted my researches here in this very thread in 2014. Olivier Nameche came onboard in the end and was able to check the factory documents on #3586 and confirmed it had actually been ordered with white leather interior. That was it.

    When Iain bought the car the job was done.
    Exhaust tips, emblems? Done
    Stitching, hole pattern ? Done
    Dashboard ? Done
    Production dates and date of shooting ? Done
    Driver of the car ? Done
    Door panel, rev counter ? Done
    Factory build sheet ? Done.

    Is that so difficult to just recount the story the way it happened ? I know time makes memories less accurate and some recollection might have been slighly altered but hey, how could Iain not remember I handed him over my files with the car ? Those files must have been of great interest as he keeps showing them on his videos.

    Sorry for all that negativity here guys, but I had to clarify few things here, exactly where I first posted on the Italian Job Miura 7 years ago.
     
  15. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    He is not Eric, but I will forward him...
     
  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    No negativity at all, your post is welcome, it's important that clarifications are made.
     
  17. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    #392 Olivier NAMECHE, May 26, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2022

    I don't see why you apologised, this is your right to mention your feeling and to clarify from your angle vision, we were a teamwork, I just wish you are not bitter.

    However, because you wonder to clarify, allow me also to correct you as you also seem to forget that when you published your analysis and pictures in LamborghiniChat with your comments about the coincidence between pics from the movie and the car stored in your remise parking, you had NONE conclusion and NO proof at all that #3586 was the car from the movie... you were enthusiast at the idea but with a lack of true official evidence.

    I offered you to investigate about it and to help in a first voluntary investigation... you were so happy by my offer and welcoming anything that I could contribute to clearly state and identify this was the right car due to my privileged entries at the factory, which was not a coincidence either between you and me.

    My results, as I can clearly claim these are mine and nobody else can pretend the opposite, were based on several investigations at the factory :

    * at first with the builtsheet of #3586, due to my regular access at the freshly open Polo Storico, I was able to look at the builtsheet, like SK did many years ago when he had easier access at factory and he was entitled to sell it on behalf of one of numerous previous owners, but he never got the prove to claim #3586 was THE ONE of the movie, this explain also his bitterness & pale description in his recent Miura book about #3586, just imagine the waves made by SK if he could have proven it...

    * in a second more exciting approach weeks later back at factory, I had convinced Enrico Maffeo - Head of Polo Storico to read with me (my Italian knowledge is limited to technical vocabulary) and to compare all the individual files/builsheets of the 50x Miura before and the 50x Miura after #3586. We spent a full day looking at each separate file, and it lead me to discover "The little paper" - the clue that changed the post destiny of #3586.

    Lavori Speciali document was fitted erroneously in another Miura file, probably because there is no VIN/Telaio number on it, but only the Bertone body number 680*314 which means nothing for any neophyte employee of the factory.

    I show you this document again, all is clarified. This is the missing link... without spreading all files it would have never happened that day.

    * one more time back at Sant'Agata Bolognese gave me the opportunity to interview for a second time Enzo Moruzzi more specifically about the Italian Job movie and his involvement, the storyboard was now fully clear.

    Thus Eric, I shared with you my multiple contributions, we are a Teamwork, your approach was very good because you had the car under the thumb, without your post about your analysis, we would have never be aware of #3586, but without my investigations you would have never be able to prove it was the right car either like SK.... so among your 7 listed points, the 3 main ones were my contributions.

    As many know, you give me the opportunity to sell #3586 because of our common success.

    Your asking price was quite a challenge as #3586 sold for close to 50% more than a standard P400 at that time.

    Yes I offered to several VIP clients of mine, but only my friend Iain Tyrrell had the Balls like you wrote to buy the car... like many other owners before him with any special Miura, he bought #3586 and the story, that he gives himself all credits doesn't bother me, but remember the article in Octane, he mentioned you to the journalist who interviewed you as I was too.

    August 2018, I sold #3586 a second time to the current owner... who also bought #3586 and the story, he did the same as Iain and played also with his relations at the top level to have #3586 at the pinacle of Concours : Pebble Beach, Portopicollo, Geneva show... giving himself also full credit... does he bother you too ?

    No apparently, but as we said in French : deux poids deux mesures... You and I were privileged to work on that file #3586 which did not belonged to us, we are proud of our Teamwork, see life more positively !







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  18. eb911

    eb911 Karting

    Dec 3, 2009
    92
    Olivier,

    Firstly my post was not about you, I made it clear that you played a role in that story by being able to access the factory documents and bring the documented evidences that lacked till then. No question about that.

    I don't want to enter a never ending discussion about who did what, but I must correct one thing : I was convinced and convinced a lot of people of #3586 being the Italian job Miura with my researches. Saying that I had NONE conlusion and NO PROOF is simply not right. I had all the conclusions but no official documents to back them. That's when you stepped in and brought the documents that I had no access to. Again, thanks for that.

    All the PR work done around the car was great, the movie at the Grand St Bernard, Octane, Pebble beach, ... again nothing to say about that but that is was great to see the car under the limelight.

    I am not bitter or whatever. I just wanted to make things clear because Iain's account was just not fair. As simple as that.

    Case closed.
     
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  19. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Another video with my complice and friend Iain Tyrrell, this time with my other friend… one of the fathers of the Lamborghini Miura : Gian Paolo Dallara….

     
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  20. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Great interview with Gian Paolo Dallara of course and well done with full credit to Iain Tyrell for that, but for him to carry on with stating here that he discovered and authenticated the IJ Miura and again using Eric Broutin's research pictures showing him looking at them with magnifying spectacles suggesting that it was his study and research is not right.
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Dallara is a gentleman, always helpful to me, he authenticated the Silvera LP400 and separately introduced me to Walter Wolf personally.

    I agree with this.
     
  22. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Hi Eric

    I wish this time you will appreciate this video introduction as you are now clearly acknowledged...

     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    No, in this video, Iain Tyrrell has only acknowledged and given Eric Broutin credit for thinking he may have The Italian Job Miura, whereas EB was the one who had actually done the research and taken the film screenshots of the stitching from the dashboard and headrest and matched them with the car. Yes, those very screenshots that Eric Broutin took and matched to P400 #3586 that Iain Tyrrell is using again in this video as if he'd matched them to #3586 himself. Eric Broutin authenticated P400 #3586 as The Italian Job Miura, NOT Iain Tyrrell.

    I would credit Iain Tyrrell and his backer for having the balls to buy the car, from which they subsequently doubled their money, so well done to them for that, but not for actually finding and authenticating The Italian Job Miura. Not at all.
     
  24. Olivier NAMECHE

    Olivier NAMECHE F1 Veteran

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    Eric was not able to authenticate it despite his preliminary analysis.... that's WHY he asked for my collaboration, Steven.... again you better to swallow your tongue, you are wrong as often...

    Because Eric provided me a VIN to check, I and anybody else, have identified it among all the individual files with a specific approach that clearly demonstrates #3586 is the right car, whatever a recent reference book try to bias...

    Then, I sold it for 2x time to eminent collector who brought it again to the factory (as Iain left it for 8 months at Sant'Agata), for confirmation.

    For your info, I sold #3586 to Iain based on our common work (Eric & I), Iain and his business partner (not a backer) paid for the period a top extra €€€ versus a common history P400, thus they took the risk buying that car based on our analysis, even if all has been confirmed since !

    Amen
     
  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Yet again you are over estimating your contribution, which was very minor, to the authentication, and under estimating Eric Broutin's contribution which was crucial, and very clever, in the process.

    Would you like a medal for selling it twice?

    Well, yours was more an administration role, but Eric's contribution was ingenious so you are again overstating your role and understating Eric's role.

    Backer, business partner? Whatever! They are much the same thing. I already said they deserve credit for buying the car and then doubling their money.
     

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