B-17 and P-63 lost at Dallas CAF show

I don't know the number killed, but we lost a lot of people in copter training during the Vietnam era.

 

More likely birds. If the engine lost power, the pilot could have been preoccupied with restarting the engine.

 

It will be a long time until the NTSB report.
After many years flying warbirds, witnessing and examining accidents, my bet is that the final result will be one of 3 things.
1. The P-63 was in the wrong spot
2. The B-17 was in the wrong spot
3. The airbus issued a command that caused the events.

All human errors

I haven't flown a P-63 but I have flown 5 other WW2 fighters and I would assume that the P-63 is at least 40 mph slower than the P-51's.
Not in WW2 combat but in civilian, save the engine power settings. It would not be able to catch a Mustang with speed only with cut off, by shortening the distance flown.

 

If the P63 collided with a drone they would have found the pieces. They find pieces of bomb mechanisms after massive explosions.

 

Seems like it was not the fault of either pilot but the person on the ground staff telling the planes which lanes to follow.

 

As in most accidents there are contributing factors or a series of events leading to the final outcome, but the primary blame still lies with the pilot flying up the ass of the other.

 

As I said, contributing factors. I never said the P-63 had the B-17 in sight. Which ultimately was the problem. This is VFR flying, not IFR.

I understand the issues of visibility. Once had a guy sneak up from behind and under me. I knew he was there based on my TCAS, but could't see **** until he popped up off my wing tip. I just flew S&L until we both had each other in sight. Ass hole neighbor in his Swift (current UPS captain and ex-Navy F-18 pilot).

 

I'm no expert but IMO, accidents never have only one reason - but there is usually some kind of trigger event that starts the process.

It sounds like the trigger to this event was the person who told the planes to change lanes where the bombers and the faster fighters were on the same course. And whoever gave them the information to fly at the same altitude. Given the track layout and the type of plane, it seems like the P63 pilot could not see the B17 in the turn. Should he have? Probably. But if the circumstances never set up the situation, the P63 wouldn't have had to worry about it.

 

As I read it, the Airboss cleared the P-63 to over take the B-17 and to join up with the P-51's ahead with no change in altitude assignment. The P-63 flew a converging arc with that of the B-17 and he never saw the B-17 that was below and ahead in his blind spot from the beginning. He was doing what he was instructed to do. Again, I have flown in quite a few air shows and the biggest and most complex was the Abottsford show where there were a lot more airplanes in the air than 6. Pilot briefings were long and thorough and most important, the flight paths and positions were carefully designed with everything going in one direction in a huge circular pattern with the fly-by in front of the crowd. You were to keep the assigned altitude and position, period, with no crossing maneuvers or spontaneous actions. Any deviations got you scratched from the next day's show.

 

maybe the motor didn't 'burped' but he dove to avoid it and the pulled up and was in a bad position.

 

I’m sorry you got confused. I posted that drone video because it’s ridiculous. Not to actually debate it.

 

my bad

 

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Actually, I really am sorry. I should be nicer outside of P&R. I just have my snicker side which is why I posted that with the question of what’s next? Aliens did it?

They’ll come up with a bunch of contributing factors but the bottom line is the P-63 pilot likely got fixated on establishing and maintaining trail on the Mustangs in front of him and went belly up on the bomber that he either never had sight of or lost sight of, thus whacking it.

 

re-watch vid (post #105) At 4:50 he puts full blame on the air boss instructions. He should/will be charged. Intentional? no ..... Negligent, incompetent and instructions were "dumb, dangerous and different"? YES

It's all about A L T I T U D E . Faster fighters should have been assigned 200? ft HIGHER than bombers and this would not / could not occur.
.

 

Regardless of what the air boss said, the pilot is still the captain of the ship. He should have been scanning for aircraft in front of him. Perhaps a proximity alarm would help in this type of situation ?

 

The Swiss cheese model of mishap causation. Everything aligns just right (wrong) to have the tragedy occur. No separation of altitude, crossing flight paths, speed mismatch, poor vis from old cockpit, mustangs strip the aircobra (outpace him), aircobra tries to catchup (tunnel vision/task saturation), flies wide of the mustangs, hard bank to follow the leaders, never sees a ginormous bomber. It all sucks.

 

They may put some blame on the air boss. They will put some (probably most) blame on the P-63 guy. It’s a clear VFR day. Pilots are ultimately responsible for where their plane is going.

 

Easiest choice, especially since the P63 guy isn't around to fight/shift the blame, and won't sue anyone......
Your post says it best:

"The Swiss cheese model of mishap causation. Everything aligns just right (wrong) to have the tragedy occur. No separation of altitude, crossing flight paths, speed mismatch, poor vis from old cockpit, mustangs strip the aircobra (outpace him), aircobra tries to catchup (tunnel vision/task saturation), flies wide of the mustangs, hard bank to follow the leaders, never sees a ginormous bomber. It all sucks."

 

The P-63 pilot WAS looking at where he was going; to his left, to his right, and above him. He was in a turn , the traverse of which matched the movement of the B-17 that was also in a slight turn. The nose of the P-63 blinds the pilot ahead and below his flight path and that is where the B-17 was. He never saw him because their turning movements were almost matched. This happened to me once when I was flying a PT-26 and "dog fighting" with a buddy and somehow when I was behind him he got in the blind spot below and in front me when we were both in a turn . We were almost matched in turn rate and all of sudden I caught sight of his wing tip too close for comfort. Anyway, ain't no expert but this is my thought on the incident from looking at all of the excellent videos.

 

I completely understand what you are saying, and agree as to why he did not see the bomber. However, it’s pretty clear he wasn’t looking where he was going as he hit another plane. He was not clearing his actual flight path. I’ve investigated well over a dozen fatal mishaps...all Air Force F-16 mishaps...and unless the NTSB does things differently, the pilot that had the most maneuverable aircraft has ultimate responsibility to see and avoid conflicts. When an F-16 did a final turn “rejoin” on a C-130 straight-in at Pope...the F-16 pilot could not see the 130 either...but he sure as hell should have, and he was the ultimate cause of the mishap. Hell of a lot more than 5 guys died that day and the weeks thereafter.

 

If the P-63 pilot saw the B-17, he would have pulled up. He continued his flight path because there was nothing in his limited vision to avoid.

 

Whatever THE REASONS, the P-63 pilot did not see the B-17, but HE SHOULD HAVE.
Three B-17s destroyed in ten years ! Given the quantity remaining, wouldn't it be wise to put the others that remain in museums to preserve them ?

 

There are plenty of them in museums already.