Boxers are undervalued | Page 19 | FerrariChat

Boxers are undervalued

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ross, Dec 12, 2021.

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  1. FFmaybe

    FFmaybe Karting
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    Aug 24, 2014
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    Very interesting feedback! I have a 512bb and I find it a fantastic car to drive but it isn’t “easy”. Its not huge, but the controls are very heavy and the seating is a bit awkward. I have a 308GT4, which i consider to be much smaller/lighter/easier to drive especially given you feel like you’re sitting on the front axle. I never thought about the possibility that a 365BB would feel smaller/lighter than a 512bb.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Steven Robertson
    Great purchase! Congratulations! How does it compare to your Miura, John?
     
  3. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

    Nov 6, 2002
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    #453 johnhoughtaling, Jan 31, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
    The 365 drives much better than the Muira, you can really drive it hard and feel like you can slide it . Very different than the Muira which never gives you confidence you can drive it hard very hard. Both are gorgeous together in different ways. I am refressing the resto on 4170, and do not yet have it back, so I will be driving it again soon. Muiras really do vary greatly from individual car to car. Interstingly I found 4170 to be a much tighter better driver than 4870 which I really never could quite sort out despite a decade of trying (it had a much harder life). I did put SV rears on 4170 and found that improved it. Think with muiras you just cant ever get over how beautiful they are. Just like a gorgeous supermodel, you just forgive the bad manners

    Ive now had some time with the 365 and I am just blown away. I also just bought a yellow 79 512 BB, and been driving them back to back. While I love the rear look of the 79, the 365 just is a completely different car. Looks and handling. . I was concerned I overpaid for the 365 as it was 2 and 1/2 times the price i paid for the 79BB but after driving them back to back I no longer feel this way. The 365, with the shorter wheel base, lighter, freer reving engine, looks and feels smaller, lighter than the 512BB. (its amazing that ferrari completely changed all the body panels from model to model.). The 365 is a smaller car. It feels Much more like a 308 (which i adore). Brakes and handles much better IMHO. The 512 feels more like the TR. A a glance they seem like the same car to the casual observer but very very different and now I see why they are so much more expensive. They are just so gorgeous together especially in blue and yellow! I just adore these cars and cannot understand why they are relatively so incredibly cheap.

    I plan on doing a video with a group of my cars. First the Miura. Then Ferraris response with the 365, then Lamborghinis response with the ultimate Countach DD and then Ferraris answer with the 512TR. I hope you guys will like it. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  4. scudF1

    scudF1 F1 Rookie
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    you have a nice collection!!
    The boxer series is amazing. it puzzles me too why these cars do not demand more money.
    365, 512BB, 512BBi. All amazing cars. I went from a 308 to a BBi. What a difference! More power, more stability and handling. I love driving it!!
     
  5. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Veteran

    Jun 25, 2005
    5,687
    Then you can incorporate Lamborghini’s response to the TR with the Diablo, and wrap up the best of the Mid-engine V-12s of the 20th Century.
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day FFMaybe,

    Upon reading your comment "I have a 308GT4, which i consider to be much smaller/lighter/easier", I thought I would do some comparisons between the GT4 and the BB... which was a bit surprising:

    Data Taken from:
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-CA/auto/dino-308-gt4
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/512-bb

    Wheelbase
    GT4: 2550mm vs BB's: 2500mm ... so BB is 50mm (about 2") shorter

    Length
    GT4: 4300mm vs BB's: 4400mm ... so BB is 100mm (about 4") longer

    Width
    GT4: 1800mm vs BB's: 1830mm ... so BB is 30mm (about 1.2") Wider

    Height
    GT4: 1180mm vs BB's: 1120mm ... so BB is 60mm (about 2.3") shorter

    Weight:
    GT4: 1150 kg vs BB's: 1400kg ... so BB is 250kg (550lbs) heavier

    Overall from a size perspective, they are relatively close in size with the BB slightly larger (but shorter in height), but with a shorter wheelbase. The biggest physical difference is the weight and so this would indeed could affect one's driving perception between the two cars ... especially in the twisties.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Are the 365 and 512s not the same wheelbase, its just the rear hatch that is slightly shorter on the 365.
    The difference in handlign can be down to the tires, notabl;y narrower fronts on the 365.

    A few years ago i drove Newman's koning 512 and it was a revelation compared to a BBi. Bteween the high lift cams and shorter final drive that motor just chewed through the revs like a motorcycle, compeletly different, while it broke up below 3k rpm, it just lived to howl between 5-7k. Newman's car also has 215 fronts, and the steering was more like my elise.

    The difference was so marked that other than looks it was a completely different animal to a BBI and for hard charging very superior.

    Thats why Im an advocate of pistons and cams for 512 cars, new rims with 225 fronts. i think this will transform these cars and then they will get the cred/desire they deserve. Yes not 100% stock, but to the eye or concors judge only the wheels would be different. If i were rebuilding any 512 series this is a no brainer.
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Wheels/tires and setup. As per post above put 215 fronts on a BB and align properly and it will feel lotus light and precise.
     
  9. FFmaybe

    FFmaybe Karting
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    Wow! Thank you for the data. That is fascinating. I’m being unscientific, but the GT4 feels like you’re sitting at the front windshield with very little front overhang. The engine is also revvier so maybe all of that makes it feel lighter/more lithe. The steering is heavy in both cars but for some reason I feel it to be heavier in the BB. Really interesting - thanks again!
     
  10. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Sean,

    My BB has 215's on the front and I believe this was a stock setup (225's on the rear)... Can you confirm the size you mentioned?

    What is also interesting... in terms of height between the 308GT4 and the 512BB... is that the 512BB is over 2" shorter and has 15" rims as compared to the 308GT4's 14" rims. Using an online tire height calculator.... The BB's tire height is (225/70/15) is 26.9" and the GT4 is (205/70/14) is 25.3" ... So the BB despite having over an inch taller tire height it is 2.3" shorter than the GT4! Amazing when you think about it.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  11. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day,

    The 308GT4's design does make you seem like you are on the front axle, but this seems to be characteristic of Bertone's designs. The 512BB, being Pininfarina designed, seems to elevate the front fenders where more of this area is seen by the driver. To me this was quite apparent with the 308GTS/B series as well. Also, since the GT4 sits higher the driver's line of sight will be more downward looking towards the front ... perhaps this affects one's perception as well?

    It would be interesting to note the length of the front fenders of each car and.or from the Steering wheel to the front to see the difference. That said, the 512BB's front compartment is larger and iot has to be, as the BB's spare tire sits almost flat in the area, whereas, the GT4 sits more far vertical and so less front compartment area would be needed.

    As I said, some interesting differences and yet the cars both feel so much different besides the obvious engine/displacement/power differences.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  12. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

    Nov 6, 2002
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    I believe the wheel base is shorter on the 365. You can notice the bodywork on the front and rear is quite noticeable shorter on the 365 than on the 512. Not overhang outside the wheelbase but inside. The 365 is also lighter. But all of these differences are just that. The feel of the 365 is very different. Both are absolutely brilliant. The fact I was able to aquire the 512 for 2 1/2 times less than the cost of the 365 makes the 512, IMHO, the biggest bang for the buck in the ferrari world. I think if more people experienced them both would be 2X the price. For me Im glad they are so realitively cheap, as it makes it even more enjoyable.


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  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #464 miurasv, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    Great, John. Boxers are fantastic. My favourite road Ferraris. As much as I love Miuras, particularly SVs, the Boxers are better cars and every bit as stunningly beautiful. I don't understand why they are not as sought after as other classic Ferraris that I think the Boxers are better than, but it could have something to do with the maintenance costs/cam belts. They do look quite modern too. It's a good thing that they are comparatively affordable imo. It's absolutely laughable that a 512 BB is about the 10th of the price of a Miura SV.

    The wheelbase is the same on ALL Boxers at 2500 mm. I'm quite surprised you think the 365 is much smaller than the 512 BB as it's less than 2" wider at the back to account for the wider rear wheels/tyres/bodywork and the same extra regarding the length. Bodywork from the midsection forward of the engine is the same dimensionally. The 365 is much lighter though, higher revving, makes more power, but less torque which could be why it's giving you the impression of being smaller. The 365 is also the fastest Boxer. Due to its lightness, higher revving engine and extra speed it's obviously the most exciting Boxer. However, the 512 BBs are better developed, so better cars really. I actually think the 512 BB (carb) is the best looking Boxer. Both your Boxers look gorgeous.

    Looking forward to seeing your comparisons.
     
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  14. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day All,

    Here is some comparison data between the 365BB and the 512BB

    Data Taken from:
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/365-gt4-bb
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/512-bb

    Wheelbase
    365BB: 2500mm vs 512BB's: 2500mm ... so Wheelbase is the same

    Length
    365BB: 4360mm vs 512BB's: 4400mm ... so 512BB is 40mm (about 1.6") longer

    Width
    365BB: 1800mm vs 512BB's: 1830mm ... so 512BB is 30mm (about 1.2") Wider

    Height
    365BB: 1120mm vs 512BB's: 1120mm ... so Height is the Same

    Weight:
    365BB: 1160 kg vs 512BB's: 1400kg ... so 512BB is 240kg (528lbs) heavier


    Physically both models are very close in size with the most notable difference is he weight where the 512BB is lot heavier.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  15. Sarc

    Sarc Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    301
    USA
    Beautiful car and beautiful grounds. Is that the WP Brown in the background?
     
  16. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    why the 512 BB is so much heavier than the 365 BB?
    so what parts are those with more weight?
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Dry sump/oil tank, heavier rear wheels and tyres, wider rear bodywork, chin spoiler, reclining seats with headrests over early 365s. There is a weight difference but not as much as is stated. See post #5 by Dyke Ridgley here.
     
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  18. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    the car i drove had 215s up front, I remember being amazed by the steering feel. BBIs were 240 up front.
    There are also some otehr issues to consider abd Im speaking ehre about BBIs because I dotn know 512 Bb specs. But on a BBI there are really weird toe and camber setups for the front, Im pretty sure this was an attempt to try preempt the rear stepping out by dialing in a lot of potential understeer.

    in general for cars i really like a neutral front, no toe in or out, and some negative camber, that usually lightens up a front end. For the rear I like a lot of toe in, cayse that keeps it planted, or in the words of pro setup guys gives it bite..

    if you look at the weight distribution on aBB there is a lot of weight out back, and the egine on top of the box means the weight is centered up high. Add to that big sidewalls that flex a lot before letting go and you have a car where the manufacturer worked hard to prevent the rear from letting go. As the rear tire widths are not so much more than the fronts, imo this was mostly done with alignments, which degraded front end feel for the safety of understeer.

    can you imagine porche back then trying to make a 930 work without low profile P7s?

    the solution for BBs is to be found in wheels and tires. on a BBi you simply have to go to a different non metric wheel in say 17 inches and try get 225 fronts and 265 or 275 rear. Youll have a really planted rear end, and can then play with camber and alignment to get great steering. One can also remove the spare tire(which you'll never use) and even go to a lipo battery.

    on earlier cars i think the wheel widths are good for what it is already. Id put some great Avon grooved track tires on, ie historric race tires, wide in back narrow in front and then play with front end camber and alignment. make sure the rear has more canmber than the front, and lots of toe in.

    on these cars we simply have to work around the limitations from the period, and ferraris lazyness in development back then. Wheels and tires for BBis and tires for 512 BBs do the trick.

    on my BBI i went with 275 rears which fit the bodywork fine but I also did 245 fronts which is a mistake. That rear now just wont come unglued(and Ive provoked it on track) within reason, but the front end as before is too heavy below 80. Next time Ill do 225 fronts.

    I now have an alignment genius who on my track car started at a base setting and then I drive the car and tell him what its doing and what id like it to do, he adjusts from there. Will do the same with the BBi one day. But right now all my effort goes tot he track addiction.

    Im really torn on the BBI, had it for 30 years so tis an emotional thing. For 15 years it was my only performance car and worked. But then time moved on and the newer stuff is so cable in multiple dimensions the BBi became more like the ocasional cool weekend drive and sometime semi daily for a week or two ehre or there just for the emotion of it. But the car is imo slow. Thats also a function of the power characteristscs of a BBI.

    I feel for me to really get into the BBi again, I really need those pistons and cams to wakeup the motor esp above 6k rpm(newams 512 BB had cams and it was great) and I need to do a suspension deep dive to get it to steer as id like. Imo the brakes are fine esp with good pads. Id also like Ac that works. As it is for me, I use the car for occasional club runs (where I have more fun than the guys in moderns cause Im still going a bit fastser than them, and working it a lot harder.) and very occasionally in fall for a 30 mile drive. I think thats the problem with BBs and their values now, they need the flaws burnished off so they can really seduce and shine as a drivers car. To me they seduce as do most old ferraris, but they need more shine to make the driver just meld more often and better, maybe the 365 does that already.
     
  19. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Agreed, and the price means youre not driving priceless sculpture, so can really stretch its legs' and enjoy.

    The google machine lists a number of souces with the the 365 and 512 both having the same wheelbase. Id always read that the differences were to the length of the rear deck soa 365 is shorter overall but same chassis wheelbase. Not saying that 100% correct but it makes sense. The Tr same basic chassis went to a longer wheelbase and more weight.

    If the wheelbases are indeed the same it shows whats possible given that the 365 steers so sweetly.

    The 365 notably has shorter gearing than 512s and a sweeter more camy engine. in the modern sunday blast context that makes its drivetrain more fun soulful and engaging. Thats part of the issue with BBs and their progression, they were tryibg to make an essentialy raw mid engiened car be a bit of a Gt car so we got the 512 no faster but lower reving with more tq longer gears and more luxury/weight, the BBi took that GT vibe even further and the Fi doe it no favors, but Gt lux is an anathema to the Bb concept, so now we need to reorient these cars towards driver.

    Juts look at the heavy flywheel on a 512 or BBi, a knowledgeable expert told me that was so the car would be more tractable in traffic. Years ago I replaced mine with a lightweight one, i cant say its measurably less tractable but the motor does respond quicker. I can also say that the real CR ratio on 512 series cars (acording to newman who measured it) is not even 9:1. These days a real 10:1 makes sense.
     
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  20. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    When I return to the garage I will photograph the bodywork between the wheel base to demonstrate that, the bodywork between the wheels of the 356 is several inches shorter than the 512.


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  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    so less than 120 kg more weight - this I would say comes closer than the 240 kg

    will go with my BB on a scale when I will be at home end of mai again
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #473 miurasv, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    The Boxers are widely very unjustly maligned as above imo. People forget that the 2 banks of cylinders and heads of the Boxer engines are flat in a 180 degree Vee, so the mass remains much lower than if they were in an angled Vee, so although the weight of the engine is above the transaxle, it is not centred up high, and remains relatively low. Also regarding the transaxle, it is better positioned towards the centre of the car than if it were positioned behind the engine, thus giving a better centre of gravity, along with the flat 180 degree Vee engine.
     
  23. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    hey! i have been in that garage ;) and i know that jeweler ;)

    congrats! welcome to the club
     
  24. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    the argument that the bb's are undervalued because maintenance costs are high is silly.
    countach? f40? etc.

    i think the single most negative element of the price issue for me is that the usa market has been leading the price discovery for all cars over the last 20 years or so, and the bb was never officially imported here, so it does not have currency. even today, there are probably only fewer than 1000 of all 3 variants in all of the usa, so hardly anybody knows what they are looking at.
    there were no mustachioed or pastel wearing detectives driving them either.

    actually for the rest of the world this is all good news - if the usa market drove the bb prices towards $500k, the rest of the world's supply would just head to this market.
     
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