And that in and of itself tells you how misleading these 1 lap wonder times are. While C7 Zr1 could do 1 fast lap, it cant sustain 10, and that fastest lap was edge of the cliff with a pro behind the wheel, so only notionally replicable. The C8z06 is 2 secs a lap faster than a cayman Gt4, but thats not on the same day, with same driver with same tires. What would the laptimes be for these two cars on the same day, and what would the laptime be on lap 10, cause that's actually relevant if you go tot he track, as opposed to bar room bragging. Lastly how accessable is the performance, is one car super edgy and the other predictable etc. By all accounts the z06 is very predictable in a way the zr1 most certainly was not. We so far have very mixed anecdotal evidence about tis ability to sustain time. Some with some experience are saying 1/2 day and tires are shagged, but then i know a 4000lbs camaro can last. What is interesting is the 4rs and z06 are quicker than a 918 and however you slice that, its really saying something. These cars also appear to be in a close orbit to a mclaren 765. having run up against one of those I can say its performance is in another league to say a Gt3, for 3 laps, after that the 765 cant sustain and usualy pits in anyways. I also note that the z06 appears to be faster than the benchmark Gt3, but then again not same day not same driver. Lets assume for now that the z06 is at least as quick or quicker than a Gt3, the question then is can it sustain competitive laptimes, and run for 2 days without eating 2 sets of tires and pads. If yes then it is a serious contender/player. If not, then like the C7 z06 Zr1 maclrens and ferraris it is a bluff car. Probably for most buyers the bluff is all thats needed because theyre not going to the track seriously if at all. The difference between fresh tires and not so fresh can be 3-5 secs per lap. If the tires go off after 3 laps, and dont even last a day, we have our answer. If the vette is really to be regarded as a player as opposed to poseur, then well need to see those sustained times and consumables being on par with a Gt3 or better. If a a heavier camaro can do it, then the vette can too, lets see. Still were getting some good datta finally.
It also crushes a subru wrx. To me the relevance is in comparison with cars that notionally go to the track and where it fits. After all the z06 is supposed to be the trackable track ready vette, thats part of its hype. Ferrari is marketed as ersatz F1 for the road and desired as a symbol of sucess. To me two different markets. Ferrari are not players when it comes to road cars on track. If youre driving stoplight to stoplight I suppose its cool to think that your vette can crush a 488 on a track, I guess. meanwhile lest see what this car can actually do on a track for multiple laps over the course of day or two, and how it compares to other cars that can really dance in that environment. Everything else is just marketing.
Welp... The new Z06 beats the ZR1 and is the fastest NA car on CD Lightning Lap. "After 10 laps the oil temp want even fazed"... My Z06 just arrived at the dealer on Sat. I can't wait.... Image Unavailable, Please Login
if the oil temp was fazed the car would suck, that’s not even a standard, I guess it shows how much vettes have improved though. what was laptime on lap 10 and how long did the tires last 1 day 1/2 a day, or two days, ditto for brake pads. so far we have great motor and some fast laps. Other than bragging rights a lightening lap Means little if you actualy track a car. How long that car can maintain pace, how long consumables last at pace is the really relevant metric. it’s also a metric magazines don’t report on, cause then manufacturers, ie advertisers would not be happy. not to say the Vette is not good on track for tracking, just That we don’t know yet.
The times for the C8 Z06 and the GT4RS are the same test structure, same drivers, same tires (Cup2R's), tested together. The C8 Z06 is faster. Period. Car and Driver does MULTIPLE laps in all the cars over multiple days and reports the BEST lap. They (C&D) are very dialed in to give EVERY car it's best chance to post it's best time. And please publish the "mixed anecdotal evidence about it's ability to "sustain time". PS. You are incorrect about the C7 ZR1's inability to do a 10 lap session. 1:55.96 lap of VIR Full in a 2019 Corvette ZR1 - YouTube
So CD ran the car over multiple laps with several drivers, just like they did with all their other lightning lap comparisons they have done is the past and the car came out where it did. I posted lap times and now that the car can "dance" and put in consistent lap times, you change your argument to consumables?? What's next, the cost of gas? I'm not going down that rabbit hole.... Once you tabulate all your data and criteria, post it here so everyone can poke holes in it. Good luck!
I watched the videos and vette is all could hope for. Wish they tested a non z07 veraion too. Sad thing is how few views c and d is getting for all this. It is a very boring video and journos all terrible on camera. They seem depressed. I bet mag will be gone in few yrs. Sad
How many laps did they run? How many laps do you run in what car ever? its relevant to whether you have experience to know what youre talking about besides magaizines and maybe a few De days. A fastest lap is like jerking off, says nothing about how one can really perform. You have posted no evidence of consistent times, you have a magazine stating a fastest lap. Had you read my earlier i posts i said it was 2 secs faster than than GT4rs on the north course of Monticello which is a short course, and that the gap would be even bigger on a big track. So we know the vette can lap a few laps really fast cool for the Walter Mitty's who think they have fast racar, sorta irrelevant if you run 15 laps 5x per day for 2 days. That's the metric thats really relevant if you actually habitually go to the track and have talent and a clue there. How long didn the tires hold out, did they last two days?, brake pads? thats what counts. No magazine publishes that. Im not saying the vette cant do it, I have stated multiple times a heavier camaro can, so the vette should be able to, Im questioning whter we have the datta that it can. Unlike the bar counter experts, I have a z06 on order and when mine comes its going to live half its miles on track, so that info is crucially relevant to me, and for that matter anyone who seriously tracks. If you go to the track consumables and consistency is the issue, cause if a car cant do that, its not really a track car, no matter how fast a lightening lap is. Lightening laps are marketing, same a nurbering times.
A c7 zr1 motors wqill hold up for 10 laps, unlike a c7 z06. The issue is the tires wont., In fact there are multiple interviews with vette engineers who say the difference on the c8 z06 is it will run consistently for 10 laps because it does not lean on its tires in the way the Fe cars needed to. the c7 that lasted on track was the Gs, that was partially a function of its lower power not overwhelming the rest for multiple laps. BTW Mcalkrens and ferraris dont last full tilt either, so itf the vette can now, it would sorta be the first supercar that could. track peoipel run what works, and many have the budget to run anything. they choose porches because they work, thats why you see so many on track. The three new cars that i know of in 22 that work on track out the box, are the GT series porches and the camaro zl1 1lt, arguably some mustangs too. As for lightening laps 2 years ago they said the Hinda Civic type R was the small car for track. What they didnt say was that after 5 laps the engine went t into limp mode. You could sorta find that info and i wrote to matt farah and he answered in the affirmative. Same was the case with the c7 z06. Point is a lightening lap is just that, one lap full tilt under optimal conditions with fresh rubber that was probably brought up to temperature for a lap or two before. its an interesting metric of ultimate optimal potential, its says little to nothing about what the consistent laptimes are over 10 laps, and what the car consumes to gett here.
yes the future is the video mag guys, and like the transition from silent movies to sound not everyone can make the transition. Can someone post the links to Cand D I too am interested to know how the non z07 performs on the same tires. When i unpack the z07 what doe sit have. 1 Pointless ceramic rotors. 2 Stiffer springs and some different shock programming. This may be highly relevant, or maybe a minor thing. 3 Aero. 700lbs of downforce at 180 something is irrelevant on track, Is there real downforce at 100 mph. Seems that this car is a mechanical grip car and while the aero may help how relevant is its contribution. 4. tires, well you can put the same tires on a stock z06. That would be the real test can a seasoned amateur extract much more form a z07 than a stock z06 on the same tires, and how different is that laptime, it may be negligible. Seems like at this level of performance and go, its really the driver and below top tier there may be little difference between the cars. Could be a stock z06 with some real aero is the ticket. We'll see once people start to really track them, and tat will be dependant on whether the car can sustain or whter it eats consumables.
Just got my issue oif C and D. i see zero datta about how many laps they ran, or how long tires or brakes lasted. All I see is single fastest lap. Thats going to be on warmed up fresh tires and pads. We know nothing about how well any of these cars would last for 5x30 min sessions per day at full tilt for 2 days.. these are nice bragging figures, they may have some rleevance for real track work in etrms of potential, and they may also be completely misleading if tires are and brakes are shagged after 1/2 day. If that were the case(and im not saying it tis) then something like the vette would be as useful as a ferrari on track, ie completely not useful. Thats my issue with these magazine tests, great for sales and advertisers, but what do they really etll us if you go to the track. A lightening lap does not sperate the wheat from the chaff. Lets see what oters have to say, notably Mt, and Id like to hear evos take on thsi car. meanwhile lets consider ourselves impressed with the vettes reported dynamics, a car thats easier to expolit is also goign to be faster in most hands, and the vette by alla counts gets that part spot on. If the vette hoods up as well on track as the ehavier camor, its not just one of the greats, its a game changer in the supercar field. Lets see, no one besides the vetet engineers know the answer yet. A friend took his Mercedes amg 63 tom the track and 3 days later needed 20k in brake job. heavy cars with lots of power, and expensive consumables are not really trackable in any real useful sense regardless of budget. Not saying thats the evtte, just what can get in the way. Camaro is 4000lbs iron rotors last seasons, and tires 2 days, thats the benchmark.
Videos on YouTube lightning lap 22. Carlos largo is the host and I like him but he can't save this snooze fest. I've read the z07 and c.f. wheels also get specific steering tune. Ii bet the driving experience is worth the money even if negligible lap time improvement
I think magazine grass roots motorsports used to do lapping tests that would report how long car could lap before overheating, brake loss, tire wear. Used to read it at Thompson raceway garage. Car and driver should've done 10 min enduro test gt4rs and z06 to see which one covered more miles like lemans.
Could be, lighter wheels do make abig difference on many cars, i can feel it on my exige between my lightweight stiff wheels and the lotus ones. I just don't see Cf wheels working for regular track use due to the mounting and dismounting of tires several times per year. But maybe that steering tune and some lightweight track wheels are the trick, or maybe lightweight track wheels on a regular z07 are just fine. In the end once you get to know the car a bit youre going to play around with tires and alignment to get it how it works best for you out on that edge. I am assuming one will also have ones road wheels and then a dedicated set to put on the car for driving to and on track. Alas were left with journo impressions between the different versions cause you cant really try any of these cars let alone swap between the two on track to decide. might be worth a trip to Nevada to the corvette academy to try. I'm hoping that before I spec min, someone I really respect will be at the track and have run one or a few and can give me the lowdown. Not expecting that info from a USa mag doing one lap wonder tests, although Mt does a better job than the others though imo. i laugh at some magazine stuff. Love chirs harris, but hes always showing cars in controlled drifts, great video but pointless in any real sense.
This is my perspective: It is a Corvette so there has to be something wrong with it. I call total ******** on this endurance issue. Track days in street cars are never done at 10/10's and the cars do very well at teaching drivers and showing them a great time. The Corvette has been a great car for several generations. Get used to seeing it pass everything on your track days.
How many laps do you have at VIR? How many laps do you have in a C7 (any variant) at VIR How many laps do you have in a C8 (any variant) at VIR? How many laps do you have in a Ferrari or McLaren (any variant) at VIR? You act like HPDE's are races. They are NOT. There is NO SUCH thing as a 20 minute, 10/10ths session in an HPDE, there's traffic, spins, etc.... And when did Matt Farrah start writing/working for Car and Driver? Weren't you the guy that claimed the Carmaro ZL1 1LE couldn't do a long track day because you decided it was too heavy? Thought so. LL is no different from 0-60/1/4 mile. It's a measurement of performance with as perfect a set of conditions and fairplay as can be done. To obsessively talk down on it with your OPINIONS (and they are your opinions) is just tiresome. C&D has recorded REAMS of data...have YOU?
No laps at VIR. I run the Glenn mostly. ive run multiple laps in a C& Gs at monticello, Ive driven aganist all the C7 variants at the Glenn. I have zero laps in a C8, but Ive seen them run and run against them. Ive run mulktiple laps ina maclaren 570Gt4, in fact all day. ive seen them run and run against pretty much evcery variant of maclaren excpet a f1. Fearrais ive extensively lapped a 599, and driven a 458 on track, plus Ive run against the challenge cars which occasionaly show up. I dotn know what you call HPDEs, i know there are lots of groups to get evtet and other guys out on track, i instruct for some of those groups. The guys I run with, when we get serious its open track all day, ie go in go out come in as many times as you want all day, passing everywhere. Basically where racers, real racers go to practice and sort their cars, or just play with friends. Its not racing cause there is no9t start of finish, but I would liken it to jousting. people go out catch eachoter joust, try learn, try to keep up with faster people, come in talk discuss learn go out again. Youre always learning from someone and there is someone learning from you, some people are fast in some areas others better in other I also instruct for various HPDE groups so have an idea, although i would never put my skill level as that of a pro racer. By pro racer I dotn mean some rich dude who can buy a car and sponsor a team, I mean real racers who came up though the ranks and earn their living that way, usualy much younger than us. In my pantheon of skills Id liken to a golf club. there are members who are great, the best of them are not as good as the resident pro, and the resident pro is nowhere compared to a professional golfer, and then mostly professional golfers are not Tiger woods. id say Im good enough that real pro racer considers that if they speak to me their peals of wisdom are not totally wasted and i can absorb and learn. To give you an idea, when many years ago I first went to race school, we were in single seaters and thought we were going fast, the instructors were in dodge neons with the same motors as the single seaters and we couldn't keep up. By day 2 it was of course different and day 3 more so, although we couldn't keep up with the instructors in their single seaters. Skiil and learning to carry momentum is where speed comes from more than power or fat tires. Later schools upped the ante with aero etc. Took me many years to fully absorb what I was taught and put it to effect. I bought an elise because its not an overpowered car and speed came through skill, there is no other way to go fast truly fast in that car. I was at LRP once on a test and tune day, thats open track where licensed racers can run their cars for testing. There was one of the first elsies in the USA running> admittedly LRP is a small track and rewards skiil over Hp, but that little elise it pretty much lapped everyone regardless of what they were runing. Thing is it was being driven by the then F3000 champ, skill and keeping speed through bends is where laptimes come from. When I thought I had it more or less down in the Elise I went to a faster car and the elarnign curve started again, not leasty because when you have more power and grip there is a tendency to over brake and then add speed back. There is much to be learned in following a well driven Miata through a series of corners if you can keep up cause that miata aint slowing down, they cant afford to. one of the best lessons I learned, "brakes are not to slow the car down, theyre just there to settle the car for the corner" From my observation, amateur's in powerful cars, over brake for corners, or cant trail brake in, then they add lots of power off the apex to make up for the deficit. Lots of fun to hoon about in your fast cart, and i greatly encourage people to go to the track regardless of skill, cause nothing worse than having a cool car and not using it. From my observation of students, the worst are the 60+yo guys' with a vette camaro ferrari etc. they've been successful at what they do and think they can drive, they lack the humilty to learn. the younger gusy you'd think they'd be reckless, but they still have the mentality and humility to learn, and maybe because the car is a larger percentage of their net worth theyre more into learning than wrecking, guss who'll advance the most in a day, the older guy in vette or the younger guy in a GTI. If you get to the level of going with a skilled group in open track its rare to see an accident if ever. In HPDE as you note there is always a wreck or two or there, and there is traffic, usualy trains cause people dont see flags or give point by's as they should for various reasons. In open track groups with skilled people, there is flow, people know what theyre doing and if youre approaching someone theyre seeing the flags, aware of where you are and you know where youll be when passing cause you all know what youre doing, the track etc. Youre not really losing pace, ditto for those coming up behind you. A pecking order of speed very quickly emerges and the slower guys' try latch on to the faster guys and learn. Sometimes when you see what I term a track artist ina slower car, you just back off on the straights and follow them through bends to elarn. Everyone is always learning. its not racing, but its race pace, same as you see at say nurberiung on open days with some cars. And yes race teams are there practicing, although trying to keep up with an actual GT4 or GT3 alms race car driven by a pro is pointless. i mention this because its same day same open track. there are some few others on thsi site who run on track and have posted here before. They don't do so now because often its like asking a blind man to see and they are not looking for confrontation. there is one poster here who spent an untold fortune trying to make a c7 really work on track at full pace, he posted the list of things what went wrong on that car, im guessing he wa in for over 300k, and eventually moved on to a pcar. There is fast and then there is fast. Yes i had made comments about he camaro, and the previous gen camaro was a damp squib except for the z28 which was the equal of a then Gt3, if you dint ,mid the extreme tire budget. there was one that used to show up. the current camaro specifically the zl1 1lt is excellent, maybe a bit of a blunt instrument but the numbers do not lie. That being said Ive seen all of two people with the skill to really exploit that car, most who buy them are guys impressed with themselves or their car just having some de fun. But yes I correct myself and earlier coments at every opportunity here to say the zl1 1lt is the real thing and kudos to gm. the only caveat on that car is the 1lt unlike the regular zl1 is really really hard on the road, ie unless you live somewhere with really smooth roads not really a road car, more like road legal to the track, same as a Gt3 Rs. Unlike the previous gen z28 the zl1 comes with iron rotos not drilled. That tells you right there that the people who developed that version of the car were really honing it for peopel who go to the track, not for bling. My data about laptimes and how these cars hold up is based on direct observation at the glen and what the owners/driver who I respect have told me in terms of maintenance and consumables. same applies to the C6-7 vettes and occasional ferraris that show up. the magazines, theyre journalists first, who happen to love cars or car culture. Theyre selling n a product, and need advertising, theyre not going to diss cars or point out major faults. Ive seen the magazine guys at moticello testing a f8 and them ive seen one of the resident instructors take that same car out and there was vast difference. ive seen billionaires with f8s drive to the track and then get in their Gt3s etc. There is simply a vast difference between a track car and a race car. In between the two is a magic area of road legal cars that can really work on track. Its a very fine line. The lotus eliges all work well on track and are easily modd to work way betters on track and still be fun on street, although the ego of rich guys means a lowly elige wont fit their sense of a fast car. The alfa 4c I thought was excellent on track, as close to a pure track car as a street car gets. The Gt series porche all work well as we know for a price, and by price I mean runing costs, and you need serious skill to really exploit what those cars can do due to the cornering forces and sheer velocity. the camaro as noted works great out the box too. The c7 only the Gs really held up to real use, and even then there are some horror stories' when the pace really went up. the c6 z06 with some mods, specifically suspension brakes and apparently cylinder heads is still the sleeper killer, its light and powerful, imo thats the best vette to come along in a while, and if I were buying a vette to collect even though the interior is crap, thats the one, although others here more experienced in these cars than me say a moded C5 is really the one. ive seen more broken c7s on track than pretty much any other marque. on to the topic at hand. the c8 z06. As others have said, and some who have tracked c8s these are Gt cars, and Gm was smart to make a road car comfy 60+ yo dudes and women to drive about in, as that seems to be the majority vette buyer. Apparently the z06 is a very different beast, just as a porche Gt3 a very different to a c4s although they share the same platform. As noted the camaro despite all its weight holds up on track, so in theory the vette should be able to also. However we have the vette history of scrimping on some key components when it comes to real track durability(c6 brake lines, c7 wheel bearings, cooling, oiling) and the dual nature of the z06(unlike the zl1) may mean its not as track durable as the zl1. We simply do not know. So far there is nearly zero evidence, other than the vette team saying there me car is designed to run consistent laps, and some videos by speed phenom. A bunch of magazine journos doing a lightening lap, tells us only the potential of the car, nothing more. All it tells me is like a ferrari road car the vette can run a few some fast laps. However in faith I have mine on order, and will run it on track as intended. Btween now and then we'll probably get some real datta and from that we'll know whetger the evtet has that magic formula like a Gt3, or whether its a fast road car that can turn a few fast laps. For those of us who are really going to use it on track thats a valid question. imo it will best answered when we see those cars showing up at suitable events and runing against their peers. thge same questions are validly being asked and debated over on vette forums where I see you appear and where peopel own both vetets and pcars..
I’ve been on VIR for I don’t even know how many laps in various race cars, few street cars, including my C8. The C8 was super good for a street car (not as good as a 600LT, but yeah). I am cautiously optimistic about Z06- I spoke with those that know what’s up and they said it is the real deal. They are the ones that told it did 2:38 several months ago. Grand course is in some ways a rough choice (familiarity is limited for everyone- the addition of the central section Patriot course is a bunch of patience, not WOT), but the extra distance helps stretch the differences.
Here’s hoping I’m looking forwards to mine. Any idea how many they are actualy making and can make. Seems like so far very few.
No clue. I gave my order to my mid sized dealer (I’m #1 for them)- they haven’t gotten an allocation yet.
