list good track cars

On that note: I've run a 987.2 Cayman for track and autocross for a few seasons. It has been cheap to run and dead simple to maintain.

 

i guess you didn’t do much driving to the track
For example the drive to the Glen is 4-5 hrs on highway, not even fun in an Elise
And then after two days on track you’d have to drive it back

 

Wow.

You really wouldn’t like the Pur Sang Bugatti!



Matt

 

Id love the pur sang bugatti, a T35 has been a dream car for me since childhood, but I wouldn't drive it 5 hrs down the modern highway to a track. I would drive one on the mille miglia retrospective for days, but that's very different conditions to the modern american highway with trucks stones suvs potholes and all manner of crap.

i think were were talking about cars that can practically be driven down the highway for hours to get to the track, 2 days on track and then home in reasonable comfort. An Elsie is probably the lowest end of the comfort/practical bar. Thats part of the genius of the Gt3 porche. Its overkill for the road and a bit stiff, but more than practical and comfortable enough for the slog to the track whatever the traffic, weather etc, and every bit the equal of many a dedicated track car once on track.

It seems to me that the prototype of what were talking about is a 250 swb and the current king a Gt3..

 

List new track cars you can actually buy.
Camaro, Mustang
Honda.(premiums are gone already)
And you can be on a list for the z06 at msrp.
Forget about porches, those are apparently for flippers and bar poseurs. You can geta Gt4 Rs for 75K over msrp, loaded with a bunch of worthless crap. 300K anyone? Porche really needs to make more of these, they seem to have plenty of other caymans so whats the issue.

 

Will just offer some counterpoints from my experience in tracking a few cars.

The newer civic type R's are heavy and slow...and front wheel drive.
They weigh over 3,100lbs with only 300hp...
I'm not sure how or why people think these are great "track" cars.

Lotus...
I've owned and tracked an evora 400...sold it.
Also 3100 lbs but 400hp.
Add long boring gears, unable to rev match heel toe downshift(cant blip the throttle from the supercharger), and poor corner visibility due to the huge mirrors adjoining the A-pillars equals a pretty ineffective "track" car.

My current "track" cars I enjoy are a mildly molded C8 and an old school 1996 honda type R.

 

Agreed on the evora. I drove one for a few laps at the glen, thought it was pretty bad. Flat power delivery, and for the life of me couldn't understand why all the scribes rated its steering so well. Which goes to show that you cant believe "magazines" when they rate cars esp for track. I question whether the emira is much different, same powertrain and more or less same tub/suspension. The lotus for track is any of the eliges.

As to the honda, perhaps i'm victim to magazine reports, however every one including the Uk rags rates it highly, and 31000lbs these days for a street car is light, 300hp maybe not the fastest but more than adequate if youre not slowing down too much for corners. FWD is what it is. The bigger question is will the motor go into limp mode after 5 laps dure to heat as happened with the previous model. It just seems to me to be a well sorted drivers car, and for 48k there really is nothing else new turnkey out the box, plus it works on road which is part of the criteria if youre not trailering. Maybe the Honda is not a "great" track car(that requires a trailer or a150k porche, but it may well be a great out the box turnkey road car that can be tracked well.

Please tell us about your vette, whats been done to it to make it work on track and impressions. Its a pretty heavy car, curious how long do tires and brakes last. Your basic impressions, esp vs you light honda which is also fwd no?

in general very few out the box street cars really work on track, most are simply too soft and wont hold up.. Imo what works is new is Gt3 Gt4, camaro Zl1 1lt, lightly used eliges and alfa 4c. Possibly some sort of vette with mods. Maybe the new z06 is good out the box. Really interested in your vette impressions.
Im keeping an open mind on the new M2 but in general out the box BMWs are too soft too heavy and underbraked

 

Thank you for the thought out discussion.

I think you summed up the evora pretty well, power delivery is flat.
Try to convince myself well it's still good on the street going to dinner back roads. top. but it really wasn't. The gears are just so long and boring and like you said the power delivery is flat, I didn't enjoy it on the back roads. I didn't enjoy taking it to dinner cause the whole dash squeaked and rattled in like 5 different spots which made it sound like junk as well as the interior was so small and claustrophobic with poor visibility.

The C8 on the other hand..it's a sporty GT car with 500hp, exotic looks, and a reasonable price tag.

I did lower it, carbotech pads, just added drilled rotors, and the aggressive GM track alignment which gives it a bunch of negative camber. That's it.

Cons:
Heavy but power and torque more than compensate.
Synthetic steering and brake feel.
It's just a "knock off 458"

Pros:
Great visibility in the cabin
The DCT is just a joy to rip off shifts like a shot gun in track mode..love it.
Great tight gear ratios make power delivery exciting and useful.
It sounds awesome if you love American V8's ( I know I do!)
Grip and braking power are excellent, It can go very deep into the braking zones.
Balance is fantastic, very predictable if she starts to let go.
I've run 5 hours of hot laps at Circuit of the Americas and pilot sport 4s have lost about 1 or 2 32nds of an inch.(switching to sport cup 2)
Stock rotors are just fine.
Did pads once...carbotechs are noisey in the road btw.
And... It makes a wonderful car on the back roads as a GT cruiser and going to dinner, some of the best suspension I've ever driven in.
Oh...and PRICE! Relatively cheap with a warranty.




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@brookliner7 , we have the same tow hook, lol……..the 458 spider’s been a blast on track. I did a bunch of mods - SS lines, MASE tune, Kline cars and exhaust, iron Giros, Pagid pads, track alignment and Cup 2s, race fluids……but will soon be replacing it (on track) with the 458 Challenge Evo.

It’s been here, there, and everywhere……screaming like a banshee at Daytona below, 170 coming off the sweeper.
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I dig my 458 and F12 on the track. Not "track" cars but a ton of fun.

 

They are…….despite the monster the F12 is, I think the ‘better’ track car is the 458. I say that in the sense one can toss it around in corners, and it’s not overwhelming power wise (it is fast, but not quick), and easier to handle.

I will miss mine on track but look forward to the 458 Challenge Evo (not a road car on track so doesn’t apply to this thread).

 

Yes I tend to agree although my lap times are about the same. I can't wait to hear more about your experience with the 458 Challenge Evo. Please post about it. I've always wanted to look into running one of those but a bit afraid of the cost and needed maintenance.

 

For 100k ... Mclaren MP4-12C

For under 100k ... Camaro ZL1 1LE or Mustang GT 350

For under 50k ... Hyundai Veloster N

 

I shall, as soon as I get a few data points. At the shop now, mechanic is going over the car. He's a former racer and told me the EVO requires more on-track checks than the 458 (which I was able to manage myself).

If all goes well, it'll be at Road Atlanta this weekend.....It'll be a learning experience for certain.

Forgot to mention the F12 has one flaw with the alternator clutch under hard brake. Apparently it does not release quick enough and (can) throw a belt. I've seen it at Watkins Glen. Still one heck of a beast, however (the V12 sounds a tad better than the 458's V8, which is still laudable)

 

On the cheap, $8,000 to $14,000
2006 BMW 330i (RWD 6MT)
Pros: Reliable N52 engine, no turbos, generally won't go into limp mode on track, comfortable daily driver, excellent community knowledge/support, reasonable cost for tires & pads.
Cons: Poor Power to weight ratio (255HP, 3400lbs) mods max out at 295-305 HP unless going to forced induction, front camber plates are a must.

Also worthwhile
2007-2012 328i has the same N52 engine, detuned by intake manifold.
1-series. Ditto on the N52 engine, lighter weight, lower build numbers, carries a $ premium over the 3-series.

For a slightly higher buy-in, I'm going to agree with FBB,
C5 or C6 Corvette is the best bet if you crave horsepower.
There's a good reason you see so many of these at the track.

Spendy, trackable, but not quite exotic
BMW M2 competition
Toyota Supra (BMW)
Audi TTRS or RS3
Porsche GT4 (borderline exotic?)

 

I would like to build a racecar out of one of the Hyundai N models with a DCT.

 

Basically every car can do what you've proposed above with simply changing pads to a slightly higher temp pad and higher temp brake fluid. 4 x 20 min sessions is nothing.

On the flip side, almost every car above will struggle terribly with brake fade on stock pads / fluid by the end of a 20 min session if you are actually driving hard. Ditto for street oriented tires (PS4S or similar). They will get greasy, sidewalls will roll over, and you'll utterly destroy them in a few sessions.

Solution: run a track oriented, streetable pad, Motul RBF660 / SRF / Endless 650, and have a 2nd set of wheels with track tires mounted (or simply have track tires mounted to the car all the time).

 

I thought you were going to say there’s only so much you can do with a street car to make it track ready.

I agree with fluids and race pads, perhaps steel rotors, and a second set of rims/tires.

Road tires provide lots of feedback, a good feature for novices. But they do so at the expense of grip.

Brake fade is temperature dependent and the 458 is much better in cooler temperatures, as are tires, etc. and overall car performance.

Someday I’ll go back to running a track occasionally on a street car. It’s still a blast regardless.

 

As cliche as it may sound, MX-5 Miata is always the answer, unless you've got the means to go Ferrari, in my humble opinion.

One of my high school student's friends took a built one to Lime Rock and was able to hang with all of the exotics and even slayed them in the corners.

If your heart is set on a Ford, don't bother with anything less than a GT350R.

 

Caterham Seven 620R…

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Witht he right brakes and pad you really shouldn't be getting any meaningful fade.

 

LRP is a a great track and hp is not necessary. Ive literally out driven a slick shod Mclaren there in a 195 hp elise on r888Rs.
Go to a bigge track like the Glen, and its nice to have a little go also.
But in general you're right, the miata is the answer, and ideally one learns how to drive that car well before adding something with Hp, otherwise you may never really learn..

Fun fact, Maita is 50% of the overall global race car population, there's a reason for that and its not just price.

 

Awesome, there's a reason that car is still being built and popular 60 years later, only issue with that is other bigger cars on track if something goes amiss, and ya sorta gotta trailer it if its any real distance.

Would love to vintage race a 7.

 

Spot on. Wheels tires rotors pads and fluids as a minimum,

Huge fan of endless 650 fluid, found SRF to be a little soft ont he pedal, cant comment on Motul for brakes, but as an engine oil its the only one I use for track cars. My elsie went to the track first time at 300 miles, it now has 12k miles maybe 40% on track, always ran motul, still does not burn a drop of oil, but I do change it every 4 days ontrack.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-porsche-944-s2-19/
Cheap entry, cheap to maintain, punches way above its weight. A 951 (i.e. turbo 944) even more so.