In an on-site PPI worthless?

Are one of the two Marshall Goldman?

If so....that is how they operate in part because of liability and also they can get away with it. Just to share I ran into this on a car I bought from them. I could bring in any mechanic I chose but the inspection had to be done on their premises. They had no documentation on the car other than the CarFax but I was fortunate that the mechanic that they used for the belt service was a top Ferrari mechanic who cared more about his reputation than anything else. He did the PPI and was extremely through which I used as part of the negotiation. He also provided the documentation for the belt change that Marshall Goldman "couldn't find".

I probably would be less concerned about a low mileage car but I am always wary when they have replaced the battery and the car has not completed a drive cycle. Sure it can be a coincidence but it rarely is.

Both the 355 and 360 expensive issues are well known and I believe the 550 and 575 are as well. You absolutely need someone to check those issues before you buy the car.

I have never understood why each Ferrari dealership can refuse to provide vehicle histories to the current owner. It seems that could be an easy win and at least would fill in some of the service gaps.

I should add......the PPI lined up perfectly and represented the state of the car.

 

Earl Gibbs of North Coast Exotics is who I used (216.651.5512). I don't know of anyone else I could recommend that is local. I used Earl because every single reference I checked said he was the best even though he does work for Marshall Goldman as well as every other place that sells Ferraris. I hired him directly for the PPI.

Google him.

He is in high demand and is the go to guy for concours car renovations.

https://north-coast-exotics-inc.business.site/

Marshall Goldman sells low mileage used exotics. Most of their inventory is first rate but they have been in the business long enough to know that old paperwork can and will be used against them so it far easier to throw it away. While I would like to have had the old paperwork......what is far more important is to have a PPI done by someone who knows the model inside out. Earl is that guy in Cleveland.

I will give you an Earl story...... Earl asked if I was coming to see the car. He said more than half of the PPIs he does.....the buyer does not show up. Then he went on to tell a story of one Ferrari that had "looked like it had followed a gravel truck for 100 miles". He talked to the buyer and told him not to buy the car.

It's been almost 10 years since I bought a 355 there but I have clear memories of the things Earl said to pay attention to.

 

The buying experience should not be a chore and the seller should accommodate your reasonable needs. The car is not scarce and you can always consider walking and find another vehicle for sale. If it is a one of 14 special vehicle it may be a different story. Plenty of available cars for sale.

 

I looked at a 456 at Goldman's, I was told the car was in excellent condition. Flew out from Boston to look at the car. Test drive showed it rode like a Mack truck. I suspect the accumulators were blown. They insisted there was nothing wrong with the car.... I passed on it not knowing what else they were hiding.
When I bought my 550 I had a PPI done at one of the most reputable independent Ferrari places in the mid-Atlantic area, waste of $700. I have spent over $16K getting the car running right and it still needs more work to get the body stuff right.

 

I bought my 550 locally. Had the seller bring the car to the mechanic of my choice for the PPI.

it was bizzare in that the mechanic gave me a list (not itemized by price) and said this list and $20k and it will be in great shape (all basic stuff plus a major belt service).

PPI money well spent because I’d rather know I’m spending $20k on top then have a surprise $20k bill.

When the work was done, no surprises and I think the total itemized invoice came in at mid-$19k.

 

The franchise dealers I was at always allowed a visiting mechanic to inspect a car for a potential purchaser and we supplied a stall with a hoist for the purpose.
It was pretty common.

I have been flown around the country to various dealers and was always afforded the same courtesy.

 

Very often insurance or consignment owners will not allow car to leave.

 

Hey Ketel,

I have bought many Ferraris and other used cars none with a PPI. A PPI is not a warantee. At best it is a snapshot in time. I am different because I know cars. I think you are a much better buyer with all your experience since the 355. The 355 is really where the PPI concept got traction because of all it's valve guide issues and really crapped in the fish bowl. The Ferrari fleet just doesn't have the issues of the 355 model yet has poisoned the well. That said a PPI is not a bad thing but it is only as good as the guy doing it. Say your mechanic sees nice fresh looking brake fluid in the reservoir. Does he bleed a caliper to see if it is the same fresh color?

There are model specific owner enthusiasts who will know more about a specific model than great mechanic who will service all ferraris not just 575's. My Red 550 you have seen sat in a SoCal FNA ferrari dealer for 3 days while they were trying to figure out how to get it to start. The previous owner then called me asked if I had any ideas. He told me a story of how he was getting ready for a carshow and his car would not start. I asked him if he washed the car and obviously he said yes. I told him to have the dealer pull the passenger ECU and dry it out with a hairdryer. His car started right up! When the previous owner of my 550 had the 3rd installed cat catch fire that was the last straw and he sold me the car. The records are not magic. Just because a major was done does not mean it was done well. The passenger cats in my car were replaced once by a reputable shop. Then the same passenger cat was replaced by another reputable SoCal shop. The 3rd cat caught fire! You can't look at the records and say "hey great I got new cats." You should look at records and say 3 cats??? WTF! Do we have a mixture control problem??? Is their any diagnosis or just symptomatic part replacement? Is that why this same car failed cali smog then passed? (you can put in your license plate and get a smog history very telling!!) What was my 1st job on buying this car? New cat "and" fixing the mixture control problem. I have since passed smog every time and cats work perfect.

When I look at a used car I look at smog history, I'll read records as a story but don't care if none available, I'll hook an obd2 reader up and if monitors are not set... (someone hiding faults, bad stewardship leading to more faults), then visual inspect and a drive. If suspicious I'll dig deeper. I always with Ferraris assume I'm going through the car and that starts at a minimum with major service including new water pump, blue printing injectors, re-establishing electrical connection, rebuilding brakes, pre-emptive upgrades like getting cooling fans off the fuse box, and I assume I will be rebuilding suspension in any car over 10 years old. Low miles is nice but many higher mile cars can be better than a low mile car that just sat without maintenance.

I think the less you know the more you need a PPI. The more you need a PPI the more you should be prepared to open your wallet.

AS to 575's I don't know much. 550's I still own one and had two of them. The 575 is 550 2.0 and everything about the 575 is better in the same way everything about the 328 is better than the 308. But the biggest reason I would never own a 575 is that 95% have F1 gearboxes. The F1 box is the only thing that can make the 575 a brick. The 550 I can make what I can't buy. The scariest things are near unobtainum stuff like how about a fender? Windshield glass is not exactly plentiful. Need a piston? I can make that.

 

Its an old enough car its had a lot of hands on it. That is a very big issue. Every time a client buys one of that era without inspecting it it turns into a really bad experience.
Bad idea. Have one at the shop now I am pouring money into because it was a bad purchase. If he really wanted THAT car he could have had ammo to negotiate a deal to cover some of the cost. Its a regular happening. And I am never one tiny bit sympathetic. Self inflicted wounds are just too easy to avoid.

 

Once upon a time, the rule was the buyer and seller would split the cost of the PPI items.

 

You are always welcome. They still invite me as the OG. The "ketel" is still being passed around! I think winner's names are engraved on it. I have not seen it closely in a while. I like the updated 575 styling except the front spoiler. A manual 575 would be a great car. I have no clue what is entailed in conversion but every now and again I read about someone doing that on Fchat. That conversion would be cool to see. I'm up in NorCal to fish,ski, or race about 6x a year. I would love to peek in on such a project.

I have no clue what such a conversion does to market value. If conversion decreases market value then you want a more beat up 575 that you can buy cheap and vice versa. Some say there is nothing more expensive than a cheap Ferrari. That is certainly true if you over pay. A PPI can give you bargaining chips. Selling dealers often are not that knowledgeable. A 575 to them is just a unit. When that dealer sells with no records that's a bargaining chip. When they sell with no records that means major is due even if done yesterday since no records to back that up....another bargaining chip. But...during your inspection you note the date code on the timing belt and maybe it is 2021 and the selling dealer has no clue what those numbers on the belt mean or on the flipside the date code is 2003 on a '03 575 and you really drill the seller for zero maintenance on car that is ready to blow up that should not be driven until addressed. Those things can help you figure value.

I think of the 575 as a better 550 as opposed to a completely different car. I have found the 550 the most reliable V12 like the 328 is for the V8's. I'm shocked at how bullet-proof my two 550's have been. My red 550 was a nightmare for the PO and he threw up his hands said "uncle" and sold it to me even when I told him his car was solid but needed a better mechanic. He had enough. I bought then fixed the car and it has been flawless ever since. It is totally reliable. I suspect a 575 could be that way or even better. I have just never played with a 575 for any extended period of time.

 

You are not a very good negotiator. Our goal is always 100%. I am not talking about paint chips or expected leather wear. That is to be expected.

 

I have had my 575 since 2014 and have had to do nothing but routine maintenance. Bought with 13k miles and have 31k. I had full records from day one and still did a PPi with Fast Cars (Redondo Beach). This was my first F purchase and coming from Ohio to S. Cal, I needed the peace of mind.

 

I am really enjoying this thread (not sarcastic) from an educational standpoint from our “professors”.

From a “statistics nerd” perspective it would be fascinating to me (in a perfect world) to be able to have very candid feedback from buyers of 550’s and 575’s on their purchases.

A time when buyer/seller split PPI items would be amazing. Now if a buyer can just be educated to avoid the surprises - that unfortunately is “winning”.

While I’m dreaming….I wish a series of guys could buy 575’s or 550’s and then we could have the professors meet in Texas for a “PPI a day” …. since we already have Rifledriver and Cribbj down there and I’ll pay an entertainment/education fee to hang out and “nerd out” and nitpick Maranellos on a lift. That would be a fun day for me!

 

To expand on my “dream”….is there any chance this year….non-texas 456/550/575 guys….will be going to the Austin F1 race or other centrally located event so a group of us active F-chat guys could coordinate a 456/550/575 “real life” event?

It’s difficult for me to get “me time” but if I could hang out for part of a day with our “guys” - I’d find a way to negotiate that “hall pass”

EDIT - John - @Cribbj are you having a “dudes only” event before your other event this year?

 

Sounds like you would benefit from buying the best example you can before conversion.

 

With already a few Ferraris below your belt I would assume you may be educated well enough by now to make a mostly safe purchase without a PPI (apart perhaps from a compression check if the car drives suspisciously slow, smokes blue or white, etc) as thanks to many contributors on here there is a lot of relevant information on this forum that should cover most if not all known and recurring issues observed on the 550/575.

Just FWIW, my 550 is my first Ferrari and I ended up purchasing the one with the highest mileage after checking out up close no less than 10 of them, as it had the cleanest CV and was the cleanest of all the cars I had checked and driven. It had been used regularly throughout its life but had been very well taken care of and had reached the point where it just needed comprehensive servicing with a few usual topics to be covered - it was still on its original clutch, motor mounts and fuel pump supports, and that was absolutely fine with me. I enjoyed replacing of all these myself, noting while wrenching below with all undercovers off that there was zero sign of rust or repaired damage, as confirmed by my initial observation during my first inspection. Just a clean, used, honest, straight and transparent car that did not pretend to be what it was not, like a supposed low mileage garage queen with a dubious service history and looking like it had gone to and back from the moon with a few journeys sitting still in the ocean.
Several decades of wrenching on personal and friends cars helps deciding if a car is closer to a clean one or to a lemon, (analog) Ferraris included, in my humble opinion. Mine came out of a major service before I bought it, from an official F dealer, but I am glad I took the front engine covers off as the accessory belts were way too tight and the apparently original lower cam drive bearings have been sweating grease and now need replacement. That's something the dealer should have adressed and they must have seen this while they replaced the front main seal. Anyway.

My point is that you can save your time doing without a PPI that will never guarantee that the car needs nothing, if you accept that you have be to ready to still spend around $15k when purchasing a "clean" and honest car that has never been messed with (or in an accident), and have the work done by someone who is specifically fluent with a 550/575. That's better than dealing with possibly nasty surprises that always feel more expensive than the work already known needing to be done. When I asked the local F dealer and some respected independant F workshops about the lower cam drive bearings they rolled their eyes and said to me they never replaced them. This tells a lot to me about how "uninvolved" some professionals can get, even those regarded by the average non-DIY Ferrari owner as the highest profile mechanics around.
Checking out as many cars as possible should help you decide how to take the results of a PPI, should you want to err on the safe side and have one done on the possible final car you have your heart set on. You are the person buying the car who will have to manage it as an owner, the pro doing the PPI isn't.

 

I bought my 575 6 speed manual without a PPI. I know a fair bit about cars but knew precious little about 575's at the time. After inspecting and driving it myself my instincts told me it was a good car.
It had been a difficult aquisition because the owner changed his mind on selling it a few times. When he called and asked if I was still interested , I answered "yes of course". When asked when I would like to look at it , I said "right now". I did not want to jeopardize the sale with the time taken for a PPI. After the test drive we agreed on his asking price and I went to the bank immediately to get the money. I drove it home an hour later...
Yes , rolled the dice. Turned up double 6's so far as it has been a great car with next to nothing (for a Ferrari) spent on unforseen maintanence.

 

" about the lower cam drive bearings they rolled their eyes and said to me they never replaced them. "
******
My 575 rt lower cam drive bearing went out at 3 years and 10k miles.

 

@ketel I just converted my 575 with nearly all OEM parts and the result is WELL worth it. If you go that route you will not be disappointed as long as it is done with proper attention to detail.

While I do not _object_ to someone using one of the kits, especially if the joy of diving is the only motivation and the quality of the parts is perhaps better that OEM, I would personally only consider the OEM route and all of the potential difficulties that brings (sourcing chief among them). I think OEM will fare better should you ever chose to sell.

Edit: also - unlike a “cut” Daytona, etc…it’s pretty simple to go back to F1 should someone desire.