New MANUAL TRANSMISSION Ferraris-Doug Demuro

Apples and oranges. The F1 in the F430 is miles ahead of the 355. I'm not dissing 355 F1 owners but its not a great box. The F430 F1 is.

 

And the 360? Have you checked 360 F1 vs manual prices lately?

 

I still don't get your point. Stop talking about "classic" cars and look at models made TODAY with manuals. Even those are still 10% of the market. THAT is a fact.

If someone wants a manual Ferrari they can get one pretty easily. Just buy a great car earlier than 2008. They made thousands of them.

 

Then look at how many 430's have been converted to 6-speed. That conversion doesn't make them rare because it wasn't that way from factory, and it makes them very non-original, and it probably costs more to convert than the market will give back as modified cars, but they still do it. Why would they do that when it costs them more (in terms of conversion cost and market hit for being modified) than just leaving it as F1?

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https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a35650295/porsche-991-gt3-manual-take-rate/

“Former Porsche Cars North America boss Klaus Zellmer lost a bet over how many U.S. customers would order a manual-transmission 911 GT3. Zellmer bet 20 percent, and was surprised to find out when the car was launched, the initial manual take rate was 50 percent. When we spoke with Zellmer in 2017, he expected that 50-percent figure to decrease over the life of the car. But with all due respect, he was wrong once again.

Porsche confirmed to Bloomberg that around 70 percent of all last-generation U.S. GT3s were ordered with manuals. The U.S. manual take-rate in the rest of the 911 lineup is only around 20 to 25 percent by comparison. Globally, the manual take-rate for the last GT3 was 30 percent so, uh, U.S.A.! U.S.A! U.S.A!”



What am I missing?


Peak performance manual Ferrari is F430. Good car, but not great. It’s almost 20 years behind. It would be nice to see at least a 458 performance level manual.

 

If manuals are 10% of today’s sports car market, that is the manufacturers’ doing, not reflective of the true desire of the enthusiasts.

 

Do an Fchat poll. “If Ferrari released a rear mid-engined car (F8 replacement), would you order it with DCT or manual?”

 

I'd counter that with the F1 came late in the production years. In those years that both were available what was the ratio of F1 to manual? i.e. Once the F1 was offered during the time of buying new what was the take rate on the manual?

 

People took note of the absurd prices being paid for 911R's. The 'last' of the manuals.
.

 

Irrelevant in regards to today’s sentiment. I’ve already admitted F1 was higher demand when introduced. That has more to do with trying something new.

 

Are you talking about daily drivers? How would that statistic have anything to do with what Ferrari buyers want. Even though I love manuals, I want automatic in my daily driver, most people are the same for commuting. Totally irrelevant to the discussion of Ferraris.

Yes, because it's so easy to pay double for the exact same car just to get the transmission you want.

 

Well it's more than novelty, it's being as fast as possible. If chasing pure performance is your objective then there is zero denying the advantages of the later F1 or DCT.

What we're seeing a subset of buyers circle around to is experiential driving with a manual, rather than numbers. Then we're seeing demand for these Porsche manuals, Singer, Gordon Murray Automotive, Lotus, etc.

 

I’ve made this argument before…

There was a time when 16m’s were trading for $100-150k above it’s Coupe counterpart, the Scud. The 16m was 2 secs slower around Fiorano.

Why are people paying a premium for Spiders if their concern is absolute performance when the car was newly released?


The only answer is they valued the experience over absolute performance. Same goes for a manual.

 

I'm talking about Z cars, the Fiat 124 spider/ Miata and the Supra. All sold about 10%. When Fiat cancelled the 124, do you think they said: "Gee if we only made more manuals we could sell a ton of them!". Nope.

I had a Corvette C7 manual. Only 15% of of them were made that way. I know this because I ordered mine through one of the top Vette salespersons in the USA and I asked him how many he ordered as manuals. You could order a Vette C7 with a manual. No restrictions and actually cheaper than the Auto. Few did.

I can't think of a better example than this. Vette buyers are more old school and probably a bit older than F car buyers.

I tried to order a BMW M2 with a manual through a dealer. The dealer REFUSED to take my order saying he'd have a tough time getting rid of it if I back out. I walked out and they didn't care.

When the F430 came out the F1 box was like a 10 grand OPTION. The manual was CHEAPER. Like 90% of all F430's came with the F1.

 

That's a good point. Hard to argue it's about pure performance in that example. Or, you need F1 for pure performance that will clip a tenth of a second per lap but weigh it down with a ton of luxury items that slow it down.

 

Nobody is denying the performance advantage, it's just that it isn't relevant for street use. So it's 2.4 seconds (or whatever) 0-60 with F1 versus 2.8 seconds manual -- who frickin' cares? All of it is way more performance than you can actually use on the street. I don't know anyone who is into "pure performance" over the driving experience for the street, especially when the new cars are so ridiculously fast either way. The driving experience is everything among every enthusiast I've ever talked to for street cars.

 

Are these incorrect? States 26.5% manual trans for all C7.

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2019/10/23/a-final-look-at-production-statistics-for-the-c7-corvette/

And 34% for C7 Z06

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2019/10/23/a-final-look-at-production-statistics-for-the-c7-corvette/

 

15 to 26 -- still proves my point. Most actually paid more for a pretty crappy auto box. That Auto 8 GM made is really bad.

There were no restrictions on getting a manual C7 and it was cheaper. And still a vast majority bought an auto -- and these probably the most hard core "traditionalists" of all car makes.

If Corvette owners pass up a manual, who is left?

Do I wish Ferrari made a manual? YES. Do I think it would make them any money? No.

 

Again, just not true. Just look at sports cars sold today with a choice. People today pick the auto way more than the manual. This idea that somehow there are all these closet manual lovers out there just WAITING for a manual car is not true.

 

100%

 

Busted .

I find it hard to believe, for a modern 2-door sports car (not a Sedan or SUV), if given the choice, without supply chain issues, only 10% would choose a manual.


The manual Supra just recently released! Hasn’t been for sale long enough, but they expect 25%. I bet they’ll break that mark.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a41096194/2023-toyota-gr-supra-manual-drive/

https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/20221114/unsurprisingly-a-manual-transmission-makes-the-toyota-supra-better/

 

... and these "high" (is 25% really that high ?) numbers apply to the specific US market, I bet they're lower worldwide, because outside of the US a manual gearbox (standard equipment on most cars) is not perceived as exotic or gratifying - in Europe it would take an exceptional faith to feel superior for driving a manual

 

My friends in Europe would disagree. Manual Ferraris also carry a premium over their F1 counterparts in Europe, Japan, and Australia.


The demand the article cites is not only restricted to U.S. They “expect” 1 in 4 for all Supras moving forward. I’m betting results will be higher. I also never said 25% is high. I said Ferrari would get at least 30% choosing manual. 30% is a significant percentage. Not “high” or “more” than paddle, but significant enough. Probably roughly the same % demand for Spiders, yet Ferrari has no issue catering to their needs.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-2023-toyota-supra-finally-gets-a-manual-and-75-of-buyers-wont-pick-it

 

When Ferrari offered both options, most people went for the automated - as a result, today that's the rarity that makes the demand unbalanced.
OTOH I don't think anybody is paying more for a 348 than for a 458.