430 Scuderia won't start | FerrariChat

430 Scuderia won't start

Discussion in '360/430' started by Welikethetrack, Mar 22, 2023.

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  1. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    27
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    I keep thinking I have a battery issue, but I replace batteries and the issue comes back fast. And car seems like it has solid battery power.

    Very simple. I open the driver side door and I never hear the whirrrrrrrr of the F1 pump....which means my car is not going to start and then in the shifter digital display just always shows a - and won't go into neutral or 1, and it makes every noise imaginable on turn of the key and shows like 10 codes, one with triangles under each wheel, and a bunch of others.

    I have looked on this forum so many times in the last few years for this answer and still never found it...

    Any help much appreciated. Maybe the relay or a fuse??? I bought that swiss relay thing a few years back and tried to have BH install it and didnt work out too well.
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Ian Riddell
    A relay possibly, but probably not a fuse. Fuses are not known to stop working and then start working again :D

    No pump, no pressure, no operation. Makes sense.

    You tried to have the Scud-Ing relay fitted? What happened?

    Do you have any diagnostic tools, multimeters, etc? What do you mean by "codes"?

    I'd be looking at signals going to the relay to see if they are present.

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    The system pressure sensor might stop also stop the pump operating.

    Anyway, @flash32 should be able to sort you out ;)
     
    flash32 likes this.
  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    I am a little confused

    Are you saying car works fine and then after a while you get the issues .. are you describing a battery that goes dead ..a alternator issue ? Not charging the battery while sitting ?

    Please explain more of the issue

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Does your window drop when you open the driver's door? I believe the same microswitch in the doorlatch is responsible for the F1 pump priming.
     
    Red 27 likes this.
  5. tomw

    tomw Formula 3
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    Feb 25, 2004
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    Having to keep replacing batteries is fishy. Have you tested the current battery with a multimeter?
     
  6. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    Apr 17, 2006
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    I'll ask the most obvious questions... What aftermarket electronics are installed in the car? Do you have a radio and is it stock? Do you have an aftermarket exhaust controller? Is there a built-in radar detector? and the most important question... Do you have the OEM battery tender and are you using it (i.e. the one that plugs in under the passenger compartment that won't let you start the car when plugged in)?
     
  7. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    When you do get it started check the system volts, should be about 14 if it is charging correctly. Does the aux belt have enough tension to drive the alternator
     
  8. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
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    Mark
    Sounds like battery drain. Likely a microswitch in the front doors. I need to fix this issue on my car but I keep it on a tender so never get to the position that you're in.

    My advice is to try to avoid what is happening here rather than changing batteries. The Ferrari electronics are flaky and data can be corrupted with attempted starts with very low voltage.
     
  9. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    27
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    I used to keep it on a tender but that stopped working as well. Batteries were charged more than enough it seems. I’ll check if the window goes down when I open the door, I think it actually wasn’t now that you mention it.

    I told BH Ferrari to install the scud ing thing I ordered and they said it just didn’t really work…maybe they didn’t know what they were doing.

    but I mean I got the issue with the tender on, felt like the more I drove the car and let it sit less the more it worked but I got no idea. Maybe the tender isn’t really working much anymore and my alternator isn’t charging much???

    how long of a drive does it take to really put some power back into these batteries of my tender isn’t working well anymore? And yea it’s the stock tender, went back to the stock battery from the sealed I used before

    Also car is bone stock, no aftermarket exhaust or radio
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Thanks for the follow up.

    If you think it is a battery charging issue (charger/alternator issue), I would invest in a
    "cigarette lighter voltmeter" or something more more sophisticated like a USB battery monitor (with smart phone interface).

    Let us know about the window drop. I'll take a closer look at the wiring diagrams.
     
  11. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Here's a rough overview of the relationship between the door and the F1 pump:

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    Please let me know if the diagram is visible.

    In the bottom RH corner of the diagram is the driver's door latch/lock module. If the door is unlatched, a switch is closed and this sends a signal (earth) to the F1 TCU to activate the pump.

    The switch also:
    Illuminates the driver's door open warning light on the instrument cluster
    Sends a signal to the Window ECU (part of the logic for the window drop, I believe)
    Illuminates the interior light
    Sends a signal to the alarm ECU (for forceable entry protection).

    So the easiest was to see if the switch in the driver's door is working is if the interior light illuminates when you open the door.
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    By door latch/lock assembly, I mean this white component:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    First off, if the battery is well down , the tender will not charge it. Get an old fashioned charger ( non electronic) and connect to the big cables behind the seats. Will probably take a full day at say 4 amps. If it starts, see if you are getting 14 volts into the system.
     
  14. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    27
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    Came back from a weekend trip and now it has 0 battery so clearly its the battery losing charge very very quickly. So a few things

    1) Wow Qavion, you really know a ton. thank you as well as all the other replies, very very helpful

    2) I went from the sealed to the optima it came with stock thinking my ferrari charger didnt really charge my sealed battery (because they're different types) and it seemed to not really charge the optimia as my charger was always on the battery isnt full and its not fully charged lit up box on the stock ferrari trickle charger. Are these (the ones that hook up in the passenger footwell) supposed to charge sealed batteries?

    3) It seems like my alternator probably isn't charging much when I do drive it, or maybe too much stress on it?

    4) What do I do now it is totally flat, I can't open the hood and hit the kill switch and replace the battery myself (as it's immobile and I have done before). I also used to jump behind the seat it which I know is risky and when I did that a few times, I think my battery was so low the f1 pump malfunctioned and it was overloaded and I had to replace it. Car wouldnt shift by me (only in auto mode), and f1 was just whining a bit as I was driving as I think the electronics went a bit wild and the little pump sphere thing needed to be replaced.

    5) What batteries and trickle chargers do you guys all use?

    If I never had a battery issue with my scud, the car would be perfect haha, these ferrari gremlins seem very common if the battery is not tip top

    Edit: My stock optimia battery also would stay in the battery is not full nor empty for like a week, so I eventually gave up on the trickle charger.....obviously a bad idea, but I do think the trickle charger I have is maybe too old and doesn't work well anymore...
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Is your cable release broken?

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    Regardless, people have been changing batteries on cars without cutoff switches for decades. Either way, just make sure you remove the negative terminal first (and wrap both terminals in something before lifting the battery out). Perhaps tape up the metal bar above the battery for additional safety.

    Trickle chargers can be connected directly the battery or to the hot terminals behind the driver's seat. However, if you hook up a charger and use the chassis as an earth (instead of directly hooking up to the battery negative terminal), your battery won't charge if you use the battery cutoff switch.

    Just search the forum for suitable chargers. CTEK seems to be fairly popular and reliable. Every brand suffers the occasional failure, however, sooner or later.
     
    Red 27 likes this.
  16. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    27
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    I didn't even know there was a a pull cable. Thank you!

    And do you know if the trickle charger that goes on the ferrari port thing, not direct connected charges a sealed battery? is that different at all? Basically does the stock ferrari trickle charger, charge an odyssey sealed? That battery kept charge what seems like much longer...
     
  17. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
    17,913
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    #17 f355spider, Mar 27, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2023
    Get a different battery tender. The factory one with my Scuderia sucked and never has worked right. I bought an adapter so I can still use the factory charging port.
    Buy an adapter from this Fchat member here: [email protected] Tell him you have a 430 Scuderia and need an adapter to work with an SAE plug, which is what 90% of all battery maintainers use. (NOCO and Ctek have their own proprietary plugs) You can also have him make you an adapter to work with a Ctek if that is your preference.

    Then get either of these two battery maintainers, both are excellent and highly recommended:
    https://www.batterysaver.com/store/p78/2365-lcd.html Rifledriver has recommended these for years, and I concur they are excellent
    https://www.batteryminders.com/2012agm-12v-charger-maintainer-sealed-agm-lead-acid-batteries This is one I learned about last winter, and also works very well. They make different versions based on the battery type, this one is for AGM sealed batteries. Optima is a sealed AGM. I am not a fan of Optima, as I have had three leak in a row, but they always held a charge and otherwise performed fine.

    Attached is a photo of my last leaky Optima...

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  18. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    If you have an Odyssey battery, the factory Ferrari charger will charge it okay (when they work), but the Battery Minder (2012 AGM) I recommended above is optimized for the Odyssey battery charging profile, which is rather unique. Though it works okay with other AGMs as well. I am using Battery Minders to charge an Interstate AGM in my Scuderia and the Varta AGMs in my BMW (my BMW has two)
     
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  19. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    Note also that the factory Scuderia battery tray is designed to only fit an Optima red top battery. To fit a standard AGM battery will require either modifying the battery tray or replacing it with the battery tray from an F430. I went with the second option, as I am not very handy at modifying stuff.

    Size is either a Group 48 H6, or a Group 34R. Depends on the battery manufacturer what they will recommend. Some Group 34R are a tiny bit too tall and can risk shorting on the bar that goes over the top. Group 48 H6 is about 1 cm shorter, but also a few CCA lower output. I went with an Interstate Group 48/H6 from Costco.
    Odyssey does say their Group 34R will fit a 430.
     
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  20. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
    17,913
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    I also recommend you order one of these bluetooth monitors and have it installed on your battery.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/134074756781?hash=item1f377a6ead:g:6tQAAOSwvoBjyktz&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA0LXU5CuwMZ7TdSqMzRwDDVWR7Ep23hmaU1ilzO7CmGZU%2B%2BF3UXr8ZWX4hQ31wStVW7sgAUiOeOhfRuafckBFW0te8dUlY54zDJh5AU%2FUijaVJm9zzh3JcRLfkGelUeUd5vrnT4IZfNaSMLXPPZCCrL%2FJlQgEszVSoi6U6LRORvmOrTRF2FFG7zSdMA5peWSbx1yhiCa7ym4sbkFgsMQU0jhP0v%2F4P%2FoQ8JlZqtR6DMkg6wULsttqUX4bXZaVEKEUkVppGf%2FPa78ZQ7XqDytsMeI%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4rzzd7kYQ

    With this, you can easily check your battery condition, and state of charge, also your cranking voltage and your alternator charging voltage.
    It is an excellent tool and you can instantly check several parameters without the assistance of a mechanic or trip to a shop.
     
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  21. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    The trickle charger is probably ok but if you have a power drain higher than the trickle charger output, you are never going to get it charged, try a 4 amp old style charger. one of these is good to find the power draw of the circuits. Also look for a battery tester, which will tell you battery load capacity. Both cheap but worth it
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  22. Welikethetrack

    Dec 9, 2015
    27
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Leo Haury
    Thank you guys so much. I got my backup odyssey back in there sunday and it fired up perfrectly. It does seem the ferrari trickle charger sucks, I am leaning towards just need a strong trickle charger.

    And What could the power drain possibly be that is more than a trickle charger?

    What do you guys think of this trickle: https://www.juicemyride.com/products/ferrari-f430-battery-charger?variant=40071131103293&gclid=Cj0KCQjwla-hBhD7ARIsAM9tQKuv0c2G1GU3KD-2XFke-ZOMz1M9USSyTdOCdRWf9u1f3CukbxTjA_kaAphIEALw_wcB

    The one @f355spider mentioned was sold out :(

    Also @f355spider Some Group 34R are a tiny bit too tall and can risk shorting on the bar that goes over the top....what happens if this happens? The odyssy is def tall and a little suspect on the hold down bar, sometimes it falls down and the battery can move....you are correct about that.
     
  23. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Over priced box of tricks, look for something that will put 5 amps plus trickle charge. This one for example is £30 and would do.
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  24. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Good question. That's what we need to find out, but buy a decent trickle charger first. Your old one may simply be faulty or has a poor connection.

    There is usually a fault, like a partial short circuit, if the drain is too large. Here's a video on how to check current draw by using a voltmeter



    Table here for standard size fuses:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/ZwkMAs9k0heeFp3F
     
  25. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    That is useful
     

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