Nobody is suggesting that Massa should get points from Singapore 2008. The suggestion (or even stronger, from Bernie), is that rules dictate that ALL points from Singapore 2008 ... for EVERYONE ... should be nullified. If this were to happen, then Hamilton would lose the 2008 title ... even though Massa would STILL get ZERO points from Singapore 2008. Massa is not asking for points from Singapore 2008. I would suspect the justification for such a rule ... should it exist ... is exactly this: had the cheating not happened, we have no way of knowing how the race "would have" played out ... who would have won, who else would be on the podium, etc etc. It's for this very reason, that there may be a rule that simply nullifies ALL points for EVERYONE in a race if cheating like this is uncovered during the season. It's probably the only "fair" option.
No, I don't see the reason to cancel a race because a team has cheated. That's not in the rules. Just disqualify the offending cars from the results. That's what happens all the time in similar cases. As for Singapore 2008, Massa's DNF wasn't caused by the crashgate; the 2 incidents have no relation whatsoever !! It was a case of unsafe release that eliminated Massa; it was Ferrari's fault !!
I am completely clear that they want to cancel the race, removing all points and results, effectively erasing it from the records. I however have not seen any rule that suggests this is the correct coarse of action because a team cheated. To punish everyone because of the actions of 1 driver/team seems ridiculously unfair to me.
Again, Massa is not suggesting that he should be awarded points from Singapore 2008. Massa is not suggesting that the orchestrated crash caused his DNF. Bernie has stated that the rules require ALL points for EVERYONE should be nullified for Singapore 2008. Bernie is not basing this statement on anything Ferrari did, or didn't do.
Every team can claim that they would have won, had the arranged crash not happened. Every team can make some claim to the podium, in a "what if" scenario. Instead of selectively awarding some of those claims, and denying others, it seems reasonable that a rule exists to nullify all points for everyone in a case like this ... as Bernie has stated. But i haven't seen the rule (mentioned by Bernie).
Me too. I would say some of the greatest racing was in the 80's when technology was free to invent... all that ended in 1994 - under the regime of Bernie and Max....
There was never any reason for the FIA to cancel a race because a team has been found cheating. It has never happened, and it's not in the sporting rules. I don't see why you hang on to the words of Bernie, as if they were gospel. Now, I think your wish to see Hamilton losing his 2008 WDC is clouding your judgement.
So just applying some of the logic on this thread - if I go back and sue Senna's estate for the 1990 Japanese GP can we make Ferrari and Prost World Champions? - he admitted it later that he rammed Prost on purpose... so we have a confession... see how crazy all this gets.
Based on Bernie's confession, Massa would be a clown not to pursue this. If he doesn't he'd repeat the mistakes he made as a driver.
The sport's integrity is more important than anyone's wdc. There would be zero ethical dilemmas with enjoying LH being stripped of an undeserved WDC.
Well that's your opinion, and we will see if it has any traction in months to come. I don't see how Hamilton's 2008 WDC could be called "undeserved" in any way. He took not part in the Crashgate plot. The FIA integrity is also depending on them sticking to their decisions and not revisiting 15 years old results.
Please give 1990 Championship to Prost ! Senna would be the unique two time world champion post-mortem..
Alternatively don't bother to organise a championship, but give the title to the most popular driver !! It works for the Oscars !!!
You're wandering aimlessly here ... First, i"m not "hanging on" to any words by Bernie. How many times in this thread have i written the qualifier : IF Bernie is correct ... IF such a rule exists ... I haven't seen the rule ... etc etc Also, at least half of my posts have been spent explaining to you .. that Massa is NOT blaming his DNF on the orchestrated crash, that Massa is NOT looking for points to be awarded to him, etc. Do you finally get that?
BUt you are not giving any good reason why that race should be cancelled. IF you are fishing for rules, I don't think you will find any. At most they could retro-actively disqualify Alonso, but not re-instate Massa who eliminated himself from the race. His mistake cannot be undone.
It all comes down to one single point: do the official FIA F1 rules for 2008 state that the results of a race will be cancelled when it is clear that the results were (heavily) influenced by cheating, or not? If so, according to the official rules Massa is WDC and Hamilton isn't - and what we personally think is not relevant (while I agree that stripping Hamilton of the 2008 WDC title after 15 years looks a bit silly - to say the least). However - what exactly does the 2008 rules say about a situation like this??????
OMG I'm not "fishing" why are you trying SO hard to not-understand the point? Ecclestone made a statement, about a rule (or statute) dictating that ALL points should have been erased from Singapore 2008, for ALL drivers and ALL teams. He also stated, that this was well-known by the FIA, before the 2008 season ended. This has nothing to do with Ferrari's performance at Singapore! NO ONE ... not Massa, not Bernie, not any poster on Fchat ... is suggesting that Massa should be awarded points for Singapore 2008. NO ONE ... not Massa, not Bernie, not any poster on Fchat ... is blaming Ferrari's performance in Singapore 2008 on the orchestrated crash. Massa is "front and center" in this debate, only because he stands to benefit the most, from a season-long tally of points. This potentially gives Massa "standing". My point is simply this: If Bernie is right ... IF Bernie is right, about a statute and the FIA's full awareness of it ... then Massa has a case. I didn't invent the rule. I didn't postulate the existence of the rule, nor am I the one claiming that the FIA was fully aware of the rule, but chose to ignore it before the end of 2008. YOU claim that Bernie is just wrong about the existence of any such rule ... and YOU claim that Bernie is wrong, about the FIAs knowledge and actions before the end of 2008. Maybe you're right? OR, maybe Bernie is right? Also ... YOU continue to think Massa is blaming his DNF on the orchestrated crash I can't help you get past that point, so i think we're done for now.
We will see what will come out from this. For my part, I cannot imagine the FIA cancelling the result of a race 15 years later, for a variety of reasons. But since F1 is like quicksand, I wouldn't be surprised.
What I think actually is happening is that Massa just wants it acknowledged that the FIA knew about it as early as Bernie says. That alone is a huge win for him. I don't think that when it's all officially admitted, he's jumping on the next plane to wherever Lewis lives and takes the 2008 trophy home.
You're right, even if he doesn't get the WDC it's a vindication for him to have Bernie, the FIA acknowledge it. However, I hope he doesn't settle for that, exhausts all options, and goes all the way.
