What are my CIS spark Plugs telling me | FerrariChat

What are my CIS spark Plugs telling me

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by DoubleD33, Apr 13, 2023.

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  1. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    I am trying to diagnose a rough idol on a Bosch CIS on my Corniche.

    I am missing a fitting to check fuel pressure so can’t do that until it arrives.

    Rough idol when cold or hot but smooths out with light throttle. Sometimes a hot start does not do well either. I am thinking maybe a bad injector or two.

    I thought I would start with the plugs in lieu of throwing parts at it. The plugs best I can tell from service history have a few thousand miles on them.

    A few things of note I took pictures in two orientations with the electrodes as some look a lot different from side to side.

    4 driver down in the plug is very white just like the tip.

    3 passenger down in the plug is light brown but close to white on the tip.

    1 passenger is black and smelled of fuel when removed.

    1 driver less of a fuel smell but still there and not as black as 1 passenger.

    Do 2D, 2P, and 4P look normal?

    3D a little black but not much of a fuel smell

    any thoughts?
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  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, Apr 13, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2023
    What year Corniche?

    Not related to your issue, but EVX NKG haven't been available in the US for quite a while AFAIK - so might indicate a lot of years if not a lot of miles (and that's never good for CIS). Club Plug is showing they should be BKR-5EIX gapped at .032" (for a 2002). Not sure the difference, and the "BKR" look very similar to the "BPR", 4 or 5 = close enough, and EIX is what EVX became so probably OKish. Just curious.
     
  3. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    You sir always amaze me with your wealth of knowledge.

    Yes older plug change by years. Probably 15.

    1987 Corniche 2. 21xxx serial.

    Pulled some fuel plugs off the distributor and all seemed ok except one which had some “dried varnish”.

    what is usually the culprit on sitting CIS? All the parts or is there a typical starting place?
     
  4. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    Found my fuel fitting. It rolled under the top of my case.

    Key off holds 45

    running about 72 to 74 psi but not steady. The needle fluctuates about 3 psi.
     
  5. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
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    That is pretty high pressure for running. If the car hasn't had service for 15+ years, I would have the fuel distributor rebuild as well as the warm up regulator. I just had a 328 that had a hot restart issue but only after sitting for about 45 minutes. The pressure regulator in the distributor head was bad. The rebuild of the distributor head solved the issue.
     
  6. mswiek

    mswiek Formula Junior

    Jan 5, 2004
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    Also, you will want to check all air/vacuum lines and seals for ANY air leakage. Even small amounts of air leakage from old or worn vacuum lines or seals can cause imbalances in the air/fuel mixture leading to the types of conditions you are experiencing. I am not familiar with the layout or individual components on the Corniche, but on some other CIS systems there are rubber seals around the injectors themselves where they enter the intake manifold. If these are not sealing correctly, you will get the rough idle and occasional hard start conditions.
     
  7. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    #7 raemin, Apr 14, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
    When idle is rough, I prefer to use regular plugs instead of thin tips (iridium paladium), as they sustain better bad mixture and / or oil leaks. A slightly hotter plug also helps. Bosh plugs with 4 grounds, are a must for troublesome idle.

    Once the issue is sorted out you can revert to the high end plugs.

    One of the plug seems oily, could be a faulty valve stem seal or old oil that is now too thin.

    As others have suggested, new injectors, new filters, refurbished WUR & Distributor would make it another car. Easy to do it yourself (~$250 worth of parts and testing tools) , and not overly expensive if you prefer to rely on a professional.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    You've got the right spark plugs for that year/model. If you bought some new ones today, they probably be BPR5EIX (I think NGK discontinued the 4 heat range -- 4 is a very hot plug that's probably not used on anything else (and 5 is close enough), and, as I mentioned, EIX is what replaced EVX. I learned that just living thru, and buying, NGK's electrode design progression from EV (1.0mm Palladium) to EVX (0.8mm Platinum) to EIX (0.7mm Iridium).

    The "problem" with CIS is that it has a bunch of very close-fitting parts, very small orifices, and internal/external rubber components as the others have mentioned so any varnish/debris from long disuse (or even just age) is a killer. Going by some online pics of your engine, looks like you have K-Jet CIS, so they've already hit the big three - Fuel Distributor (with internal Pressure Regulator), Warm-Up Regulator, Injector seals. Is this a case of: A. it was running well, and the problem just appeared, or B. You are resurrecting the car from long disuse?
     
  9. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    To answer your initial question:

    Some white deposits (so-so gazoline, or ethanol blend).

    On the last picture, we can see the strap of the spark-plug (on the bottom of the photo) is quite thin, so these spark plugs are well used. You should measure the gap, chances it is now larger than it should be.

    More generally speaking, I prefer the strap to have two shade of colors: a bit of residues near the ground ring, and cleaner near the tip, this means the spark plug is just the correct temperature. Fully clean strap means too hot, dirty, means too cold. Yours do seem a bit too cold.

    Do not take it for granted though, as one should read new spark plugs, not old ones.
     
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  10. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    I did. Not expect that pressure either.
    I need to find the spec for this one.
    Thanks for the input.
     
  11. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    I don’t have a smoke machine, but thought thee may be a leak. I checked the pre smoke way with a can of carb cleaner.

    The injectors do have boots and I sprayed those with no charge.

    Have you seen the boots shrink or outright crack?

    I think a smoke machine would be prudent in this case.
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you're OKish. CIS systems run with a regulated system pressure in the 5~6 bar range -- but do find the exact specification and tolerance for your CIS system (they do vary a little).
     
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  13. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    My instinct is just that the full replacement, but I thought I would try a methodical approach.

    I have been in a few of these years ago but on a Mercedes.
     
  14. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    Recently purchased. It came from a large collection and saw some use but not a lot over the past 15 years. I suspect it was “good enough” so it was never fixed properly or noticed for that matter.
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    If it saw little use, don't mess with it: no point in an expensive major if tons of crude are just about to be dislodged and could ruin an expensive overhaul.

    So for now new spark plugs, new filters, a can of injector cleaners in the tank, fresh fuel, fresg oil, and take it to the highway for a few hundred miles.

    Once it has swallowed a few gallons of fresh gazoline, you can check system and control pressure and have a good picture of the required maintenance (new injectors, refurbished k-ket / wur, eventually cleaning of the tanks) .
     
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  16. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    very good idea.
    Thanks
     
  17. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Are all your plugs running the same heat range? I noticed you have quite a collection of different brands there.

    The driver's side #1 plug almost looks like a bit of detonation could have been occurring.

    Passenger #1 appears to be carbon / gas fouled.

    The plugs with exceptionally white insulators could be the wrong heat range for what the motor likes, but that's not always the case.

    I just rebuilt my Toyota pickup motor and initially broke it in using slightly colder than stock heat range spark plugs. Only about 300 miles on the plugs, but in this video below, you can see how white the insulators are. Normally with a bit hotter plugs, they end up being more of a tan color after a few thousand miles. I swapped to one heat range hotter and adjusted the air flow meter to run a bit more rich and power on the truck was much better. I also run a pretty wide spark gap, as shown.

    I think a new set of plugs in the correct heat range for the Ferrari would do you a world of good over there.

    I'd also check the Voltage levels and burn times on all the spark plugs if you have a diagnostic tool handy (after installing fresh plugs). Here's the one I use here:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001TCWMGS/

    Ray

     
  18. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Here's a handy chart also:
     

    Attached Files:

  19. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 F1 Rookie
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    Missed this post… thanks for the lead on the tester. A 2023 model of a sun machine.

    I will check but think all the plugs are the same.
     
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