Massa to file legal action on 2008 title?

Yes, there is that belief in some people that by changing just one piece of the puzzle, they could have obtained a different picture.

They put too much faith in the "what may have been".

I find that naive at best, disingenious at worst.

 

Yep.

If Bernie is correct, there was a real conspiracy at the highest levels of the FIA to ignore a rule/statute and falsely manipulate the 2008 WDC. I, for one, think that's worth exploring! Some would rather ignore it, and just pretend it's all nonsense.

Why do i care? Contrary to some accusations in this thread, I'm all in favor of Massa investigating this for 2 reasons: First, i'm a Ferrari fan (duh). Second, I spent big bucks to travel to Singapore in 2008, and watch the first night race in person. Yes, I was there. Ever since i learned of crashgate, i felt that fans like myself were also cheated. Frankly, it pisses me off all over again to learn that the FIA knew about the scandal ... before the end of the 2008 season ... and manipulated/ignored rules to rob Massa of the title.

Yep, i think that's worthy of an investigation.

 

Thought if the FIA decided some thing, regardless of position, eg Race director, Its all fine and dandy, at least that is what you said about 21.

The people who own f1 cant make a decision now if it upsets you? LOL

This place is ****ing golden HAHAHAHAHA

P.S it was investigated. Alonso never got dq'ed, Renault got a suspended punishment and a few people banned from f1, thats more than Masi got for manipulating a race.

 

Nope, las 3 races were all hard fought, nothing would have changed, i understand your point, but if you analize it it wouldn't have changed the way they drove. I could agree if it was at the beggining of the season, but not at 3 races from the end, were both of them did their best to try and win....Although Hamilton prevented felipe to wibn the next race when he and his team mate forced both Ferraris of the track in the first corner...another gift to alonso...

 

Who cares about 2021? The driver that deserved it won, fair and square, and he would have won it long before if elton hadn't cheated.

 

I dont care about 21, but if its ok to say " Who cares " to 21, just a few seasons ago, Then be consistant about it christ....... you liked wereworlfs post saying the exact same thing about an event 15 god dam years ago........

Honestly......

Ill edited this for you " Same for me, Crashtappen can keep his trophy, but the whole world know's he didn't win it, Lewis did "

Ofc, with the greatest respect, i believe we should treat all as equals.

 

An investigation is probably warranted to see what kind of corruption took place. And like @Bas said, perhaps Massa is hoping to just get it out in the public. It's a two sided stone though. It has already damaged the sport as it has created a new divide to the validity to the 2008 champion and people are throwing around "asterisk" talk and what not. It has also exposed the behind the scenes manipulation and corruption by F1/FIA. This is very good as it needs to stop. Maybe it will be a bit of a warning to Liberty Media and current FIA, but I realistically doubt that.

What I am saying, and I think @william is saying the same thing.... Massa is not robbed of being the 2008 champion. So many want to focus on a time frame of when the Bernie and Mosley caught wind of the scandal before the end of 2008, yet very few want to focus on the actual GP weekend in Singapore. Had we all found out Renault did what they did at the end of the race, what would the likely outcome have been? There is still zero evidence to support that canceling a race after it has ran because a single team cheated is even a consideration. Until we see light of a rule that explicitly states that, then we have to assume there is no chance that race gets canceled after it had been ran. Far more likely Renault, and probably Alonso get DQ'd and subsequent bans happen afterwards. In which case, Hamilton remains the champion because Ferrari threw away their chances when they screwed up all by themselves, which is no way related to what Renault did. There are plenty of occasions when teams have been caught cheating or influencing the result of a race based on deliberate actions that are against the sporting regulations, and yet not once has an F1 race been canceled after it was ran.

You know I am not an LH fan, but I think he was the deserving 2008 Champion. Furthermore I have seen no evidence that makes erasing the results of the 2008 Singapore GP even an option. I would love to see some punishments out of this whole thing, but changing history and giving Massa an undeserving title is not right IMO.

 

Massa was the rightfull 2008 winner.
Max was the rightfull 2021 winner.

 

Correction
2008 LH champion, 21 LH rightfull champion, 22 CL champion... 23 yet to be determind, But RB was dq'ed in 22 for the breach of the finacial regs in 2021for 5 years.... Not only was the last race invalidated of 21, But RB, Max and Perez was dq'ed for cheating, So LH still wins 21...

WOW, This is fun, i like this game.

 

It all comes down to the validity of Bernie's statements.

Possibility #1: IF Bernie is wrong, and the FIA really had no clue about crashgate in 2008 ... OR, if there is no rule or statute dictating that all points for Singapore should have been erased in 2008 ... THEN, i agree. This goes nowhere. Just Bernie spewing nonsense.

HOWEVER

Possibility #2: IF Bernie is right, that the scandal was indeed known to the FIA during 2008 ... AND the FIA intentionally and deliberately ignored a rule that would have erased all points for Singapore ... THEN, i maintain that Massa has a case. In this scenario, the 2008 outcome was indeed manipulated ... yes, during the 2008 season ... and the person harmed was Massa.


I've allowed for Possibility #1, with qualifiers in almost every post i've written on this topic. But, what's shocking to me, is that some aren't even willing to entertain Possibility #2. Not willing to understand it, not willing to entertain it, not willing to discuss the implications or consequences. To some, Possibility #2 is simply misunderstood, or summarily dismissed without further thought. They just "know" there's no such rule, they just "know" that the FIA didn't learn about the 2008 scandal until too late in 2009, etc etc. The posts in this thread absolutely back-up what i'm saying: i've been allowing for both possibilities, while others have most definitely not.

 

If Bernie is telling the truth and it can be proved they knew about it and had sufficient evidence to prosecute the offenders and there is an explicit rule that clearly states in such events a cancellation would be the correct course of action, and could not be refuted, then Massa has a case to getting the results changed, and I would concur that he should have won the championship. A lot would have to go perfectly for that to happen, since we are talking legal talk and the smallest details can get cases thrown out.

Say all of the above is true but there is no rule that states a cancellation should happen in such events, then the case is immediately dismissed. Nothing to talk about, unless someone wants to work really hard to get Alonso's win stripped from the record books.

 

Agree completely! Thanks for at least entertaining the possibility that Ecclestone MAY be right

 

When a team is caught "cheating", that never warrants a race cancellation.
I don't see why it should have been different for Singapore 2008. Renault was the only offender.
Had the FIA done anything at the time, only Alonso would have been disqualified immediatly, since Piquet was already DNF.

 

If Bernie is telling the truth, and races can be invalidated when a team breaks a regulation, then we would have seen it used by now given all the controversies that have happened over the years in which doing just that would have been better than the fall out the governing body has recieved in various FIA series.

Teams would be all over the this rule for every regulation break ever.

Nothing written in the international sporting code, or the sporting code about this in 2008, Nor the 2008 fia Statutes. https://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0/5591E82909E4E72AC1257538005A1DB0/$FILE/Statuts_FIA_eng.pdf

 

Until I see a rule that says cancel the event and can't be argued, I stand by my opinion that LH is the rightful champion. If it comes out there was a rule, then I stand by Massa should have been champion. Though in this event, even if Massa was correct, I think that changing the results of a race 15 years ago through the courts would have irreversible damages to F1 as a sport, and the history books are open season to being re-written.

 

What you really want to say is: 2007 till Eternity LH champion (by default, just because)

 

Possibility #3: Bernie is right and the scandal was known to the FIA during 2008, but there is nothing on a situation like Singapore 2008 in the FIA rule book.

Up to know I have not seen any proof (excerpt from the official FIA 2008 rules) that a race should be annulled completely in a severe case of cheating.

 

I am surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, so I'll throw this out there too.

Let's assume Canceling the event isn't possible since we have not seen any rule to suggest it thus far. But we could assume that Renault would be DQ'd from Singapore and banned for the remainder of 2008, thus erasing their results from the records.

Lewis Hamilton would gain 3 points (2 in Singapore, and 1 in Brazil).
Massa would gain 2 points (Japan).

Which means Lewis Hamilton still remains as World Champion 101 pts to 99.

 

Dont put words in my mouth, not my fault you lot want LH stripped of a title because of manipulation from some other team, Not even wanting a more harsh punihsment for the team and drivers who cheated, But just a punishment to LH, but yet except the same manipulation for max's 21 title.

Dont get personal about it.

Such amazing example you must set....

 

Glad you like it, it comes in several colours and flavours

 

Who is getting personal here?

 

So it doesn't matter what is right or wrong, just **** the sport, let's just skip the racing part and determine (could be by pulling a name from a pile who won the championship....) As long as our favourite wions, musto be right!

 

Don't bother, going to Ferrarichat to rave about Elton tells you all you need to know....

 

I was praising you

 

WE all know this isn't going anywhere, Poor Felipe doesn't stand a chance in hell, and he knows it, but at least he wants to prove to the public opinion that he was robbed and somehow validate the title that he won on track.
I hope this goes to some sort of court, in the end, everyone will be happy, Elton will retain his fake title, and his folowers will be happy (cause they don't care how he won it anyway), and Massa will be able to expose the fraud that robbed him, wich i believe is what he is aiming at. Anything else would be a bonus!