Power brake bleeder

Thank you once again Rifledriver. Your advice is well taken. Cheers!
On another matter, just as I was trying to get the car out after doing the front wheel bearings, my ignition switch bloc failed! Fortunately, the car was in the garage...Awaiting a new (SWF) switch bloc ordered from BMW Germany. Again, your previous posts on that subject were also very useful to understand what was going on...Not easy to work under there though...Removing the old switch was an experience to say the least...Lol...

 

There are American sources.

 

Tried that...The potential US suppliers I checked show the original SWF (BMW) part as available but when I spoke to them the truth is that they have to source it from BMW first because they don't have it in stock as it may appears...Had to go thru the aggravation of getting an "unidentified" crappy looking clone first from a supplier that is usually reliable at the price of the SWF part!!!... Was not happy! Got my purchase refunded with no problem...Should get the good part next week...I will not bend over backward in that hellish place to install a cheapie...Lol...

 

For those of you that have a "not so usefull" suction bleeder (never managed to bleed a single car with this tool), the bottle that feeds the BF tank can be very handy together with speed bleeders.

Fiil the bottle with 1l of break fluid, open the speed bleeder, pump numerous times and stop once 0.5l~1l has transitioned from the bottle to the tank. Then refill bottle and proceed to the next wheel.

The amount of fluid flushed is easy to spot as the bottle is just behind the windscreen, so you can monitor it in real time while you pump.

Compared to presure bleeding, there is less risk to blow a full can of break fluid in the car. On older car with fragile BF tanks or seals, that's worth condidering.

When used with the dedicated bags (that collect the old fluid), this is the cleanest process I've experienced so far.

 

Hi Rifledriver, I did further analysis on this subject and I would like to reopen this discussion with you because you are one of the few here that can that can provide the right input to what I believe are misconceptions on how the 328 ABS system (and 348) is configurated and how brake fluid flush has to be done to be complete. I do not pretend I am right because I have nowhere near you technical knowledge and experience but I am pretty good at analyzing things. I am sure you can put this issue to bed once for all.

First let's take a look at the following parts diagram:
061-Brake-Hydraulic-System-(For-Car-With-Antiskid-System-Variants-For-RHD-Version)
Note: I am using diagram 061(RHD) instead of 034 (LHD) because it is easier to follow the connections between the brake fluid reservoir, the pump and the ABS electronic unit (part 70000538). In 061, the fluid pressure line from the pump goes directly to the ABS electronic unit instead of being connected to it via the equivalent of part shown as #48 (3 holes instead of 4 in diagram 034).

https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/part/ferrari/70000538

My point is that I believe that the brake fluid circuit comprising the hose coming from the bottom of the brake fluid reservoir (lowest part with "bowl" shape) going to the pump and then to the ABS electronic unit (some decent volume in total) is captive and will NEVER be out when performing a standard brake fluid flush with a power bleeder. This may damage the pump and the ABS electronic unit after decades???

So the real issue is not what many mentioned in discussing how to flush fluid from the ABS system...There is nothing to flush here because the ABS electronic unit (part 70000538) is only managing pressure to the regular brake lines (2 front and 1 rear) connected to it when electronically activated to do so. The issue for dealing with stale brake fluid in the system is and only is what is going on between the reservoir, the pump (and accumulator on top) and the short line to the ABS electronic Unit, period.

The way to flush that part of the system is likely what I saw on another thread: (Milkshaker0007)

Remove wheels
Fill brake fluid reservoir
Turn key on (level should drop)
Top off reservoir again, almost to the top and leave the key on
Have a helper sit in the car
Open the bleed screw on the right rear caliper
Have helper slowly press the brake pedal, after the pedal drops a couple of inches the pump will start to run and fluid will come out. Helper should hold the pedal at that level so pump will continue to run.
After approximately ¾ of pint has come out, close the bleed screw.
Top off reservoir again
Now repeat the procedure at the left rear caliper
After both rear calipers have been bled turn the key off and fill the reservoir to the full mark (seam on tank)

Now bleed the front brakes manually
Starting at the right front caliper
Helper should pump the pedal three times then hold it down
Open the bleed screw until the pedal reaches the bottom, then close the bleed screw (repeat this process 10 times on each front caliper)

**While bleeding the front calipers watch level of fluid it may overflow before it starts to go down (because accumulator may release stored fluid) also don’t let level get too low there are three chambers in the reservoir and its hard to watch them all. If the front chamber gets too low you will get air in the system.

After all four calipers are bled turn the key on when the pump motor stops running turn key off
Pump the brake pedal 50 times to depressurize the accumulator, watch the fluid level so it doesn’t overflow (use a turkey baster or syringe to suck some out if its going to overflow)
After the accumulator is depressurized the fluid level should be at the top of the reservoir (bottom of the filler neck)
Turn key on again after pump stops running the fluid level should now be at the max mark (the seam in the reservoir)

What do you think Rifledriver? I am right or wrong?

Thank you in advance for your input on this.

 

Do you really expect me to take time out of my day to read War and Peace?

 

There is no such thing as "stale fluid" in a car. If it were the case, there would be no way to contaminate it with water...

Just follow the procedure others have already recommended and are performing successfully in their own cars. No point in trying to extract the last drop of break fluid if you do it at 10 years interval: if you want top performance, just bleed the system regularly. Speed-bleeders, Pressure-bleeders, old-school way: some methods are faster, cleaner than others but at the end of the day if you manage to put one full bottle (1l) of fresh fluid twice (*) per year in the car, it will operate flawlessly. On a neglected system, you may throw one bottle on each corners which will give you a perfect baseline setup.

Side notes:

1. If you do it regularly you will understand why we don't do it the old-school way (as described in your "essay") and buy the cheap tools (described in this thread) that let you perform a complete flush in half an hour. But as said, these are just (cheap) nice to have.
   
   
2. Water is heavier than BF, so the bulk of the contaminated fluid is at the bottom of the system (close to the calipers). You may even have perfectly clean BF in the reservoir and tons of water in the calipers. So whenever you put fresh fluid on top of the system and drain crude at the bottom you are doing a huge favour to your brakes, even if that's a partial flush that only restores the wet boiling point of your fluid.
   
   
3. If you need the performance of the dry boiling point, you have to flush thoroughly, but the BF does not keep in this state for long, hence the reasons why on the track the guys are replacing the break-fluid for every race.
   
   
4. (*) I am not tracking the car so once per year is fine.

 

It's up to you to share thoughts or not...But I think this particular topic is important and worthwhile clarifying for many fellow 328 ABS and 348 owners...Value added and helpful comments is what people are looking for here I think. Anyway, thank you for your contribution to this Forum, it is very useful to many I am sure.

 

My question is not about performance, brake lines and callipers...We all know that...It is about the electric PUMP...I just can't see how a pump bathing in way past due old brake fluid will not suffer damage? May be, may be not? The brake fluid in that circuit is definitely captive...It is not because nobody has looked at this issue yet that it should be ignored...After 30 years, some maintenance procedures that could have been specified originally by the manufacturer may have been lost in time? That's why we are here because when I show up at my Ferrari dealership with questions on vintage Ferraris the young mechanics that are on the other side of the conversation have rather poor answers most of the time.

 

You are overthinking it. Just grab some speed bleeders, ATE type (200) fluid, bleed it thourougly once and take the car out. That's what everybody tell you here.

Now if you want an extensive how-to maintenance experiment, you may have a look at what Wayne Dempsey is attempting. He is usually more on Pelican Parts, but his attempt at fitting a VAG pump on his Ferrari can be instructive, at least will give you some hint at how it works. No time to find that particular thread but really interesting.

This thread is about brake bleeders, not on how to extract the last drop of B.F from the system. Let's stay on the original topic.

 

Thank you raemin. I have already done the brake fluid flush with a power bleeder (I do that regularly on my other cars too). When I did it on the 328 last week I noticed that the fluid in the lower drop of the brake fluid reservoir (bowl shape bottom side of the reservoir in diagram 061) where the hose going to the pump is connected (fairly big hose 1/2 inch. in ext. diameter and looks like 18 inch. long) stayed darker (was not flushed with the regular power bleeder flushing)...This it what made me investigating...It's only a prevention issue/question...But I believe that the procedure of bleeding with the switch ON to activate pump is the only way to take care of that part of the circuit.

 

I’ve got a F430 that I use a Motive Pressure Bleeder on. I’ve never activated the ABS valves during a fluid flush, but I may try it with my Launch the next time I do it. So far, no problems.

I also have a 2018 Harley Davison motorcycle that the dealer mandates that the ABS valves are activated during a fluid flush. There’s a SD type tool that’s available so DIY’ers can flush their ABS valves. You can hear the valves hammering on the video when they are activated. It’s on YouTube if anyone wants to watch it.

I don’t know what’s right or wrong, just throwing it out there.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

When there are deposits, I empty the reservoir with a syringe (a silicone tubing extension may help) , then top it with fresh fluid.

Depending on how the reservoir is inserted in the master (mounting grommets) , you may pull-it (remove it) and clean it thoroughly. I never had to do it on the Ferrari, rather on neglected sedate vintage cars.

 

Hi Extreme1, the newer ABS systems like on your F430 are much more sophisticated and involve a separate system with many more fluid lines and intricacies. Procedures are well established and technicians readily trained. What I am highlighting here deals with a rather "archaic" and much simpler ABS system. I don't think the two relate very much. I am just trying to uncover potentially "dark" corners in the 328/348 ABS system. Interestingly, I looks like most owners still have some 30+ years old brake fluid hanging in their brake pump (replacing the servo) despite flushing their brake fluid every year...Lol...I am not saying that the complete fluid replacement should be done all the time but probably once in a while? Knowing how expensive and difficult it could be to fix these things I think that it is worthwhile raising some valid questions...That's all...

 

Anyway, I will go thru the long form procedure for peace of mind...All it will cost is some extra brake fluid and some time...I will let you know if some ****ty fluid drops in the catch bottle...Lol...

 

I had a similar issue to the original poster. Does that mean the black fluid I had in the bottom part of my reservoir was indicative of all the fluid in my system?

I also had a leaking reservoir, so I took the opportunity to siphon off all the fluid in the reservoir and fill with new. I haven't checked the colour for a while, so I don't know if any of the fluid in the lines has found its way back to the reservoir.

I'm still trying to figure out how only the bottom of the reservoir was black (up to the dividing line). Don't the clutch and brake fluid mix once it has been put into the reservoir?

 

Contaminated fluid is heavier than fresh fluid, so its normal that it sits at the bottom of the reservoir. This being said, contaminated fluid up to the reservoir is not good: in this case it's better to flush the system without cycling the ABS. No point in pushing these dirty bits through the complex valve.

Just wondering whether the seals of the master cylinder could be on their last leg. In this case what you saw could actually be rubber/viton residue(?). I doubt your pistons piston seals were failing as you would have experienced a noticeable loss of brake efficiency, by contrast given that the reservoir was leaking, maybe the mounting grommet was slowly degrading. I have no knowledge oy your car but normally the nipple of the reservoir is inserted in some sort of seals : "mounting grommets" (in my broken English).

 

I did some more research to answer my question as to wether old brake fluid stays in the low pressure side of the system (gravity feed thru hose from the bottom of the brake fluid reservoir to the brake pump) and in the high pressure short line going from the pump to the Master Cylinder (ABS Electronic Unit) which in turn connects with the 3 brake lines (one for each front calipers and one (with T junction) to the rears callipers.

You can also read my exchange with m.stojanovic in Conversations. He is a true expert in brakes for the 348.

Findings:

Bleeding using the long form method previously described with the brake pump running (key On) will recycle ALL the old fluid and is the only way to bleed the rear lines/calipers due to to configuration of the (MC) system. The important word here is: bleed. Bleed is only necessary to remove air in the system if any (part change, etc.). Not to be confused with brake fluid flush.

When only flushing fluid with a Power Bleeder (what we usually do), the best way to ensure that the low pressure side of the system is also filled with new fluid is to make sure that the accumulator is fully depressurized at the beginning of the procedure by pumping the brake pedal 25-30 times until hard. By doing so, the fluid in the accumulator is pushed back into the reservoir, leaving room for the pump to suck in new fluid from the reservoir (low pressure side hose) and ensure a good cleanout of the circuit I was concerned about. Regular (proper maintenance) flushes obviously improves the effectiveness of the process for that part of the system.

May be I was overly concerned but at least now I know why I shouldn't be if the flushing is done properly.

 

Hi, you may want to look at this regarding the clutch side of the system...That side is clearly passive and people neglect bleeding.

 

Thanks, @toredline and @raemin. I've bled the brakes on older generation cars, I just didn't understand how the system shared fluid. There seems to be two semi-isolated compartments in the reservoir. I thought that the blackness may have related to only one system (say, the clutch). I guess if I bleed all corners and the clutch, that should refresh most of the system.

I'm also not familiar with automotive antiskid systems. I may just leave it to the experts on my next major.

 

I think some might find this video useful. Flushing and or Bleeding the rear circuit on the Teves ABS for 328/348 using the car's brake pump is not really much more work and it ensures a complete flush of the low pressure side (reservoir to pump) and high pressure side (pump to ABS, lines, callipers).