Been there... What a headache. Stupidly bought a factory development prototype once decades ago... 1980 mfg yr in Germany... 7 digit VIN... Grey market to CA and an absolute nightmare dealing with the DMV. Never doing that again!
Found some info. This was very good information, will try to do this, will pull from 3000 rpm. So to the camshafts used in sprint package. Ferrari 308GTB: Last throw of the 2 valve dice. This blog relates to the P6 high performance camshafts that formed part of the Group 4 Specs Kit and were fitted to the Ferrari Type F106 engine. In the late 70s when ordering a new Ferrari 308GTB it was possible to specify an increased performance option for the car. This was commonly known as the ‘Sprint Pack’. It included Borgo high compression forged pistons, special camshafts, ANSI sports exhaust and alternative carburettor settings. These performance parts were derived from the Group 4 Specification Kit that had been developed by Ferrari for competition use. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login It did not come cheap and added over £3000 to the overall cost of the car. If you consider that in 1979 a standard 308GTB would have cost a shade under £19,000 and at a cost of £24,560 you were well on the way towards the price of a Boxer. To be fair this figure also included the deep front skirt, 7.00J-front and 8.00J-rear Speedline magnesium alloy wheels and Pirelli P7 tyres. I suppose there was more to it than just bolting on a few goodies, apart from the additional engine work, the suspension had to be completely re-set to allow for the bigger wheels and tyres. Image Unavailable, Please Login As many will know, the Ferrari 308GTB was powered by a 3.0 litre Type F106 engine. This was a normally aspirated, 90 degree V8 with 4OHC and was S.A.E. rated at 255bhp. It was a 2valve engine with a bore of 81mm, stroke of 71mm and compression ratio of 8.8:1. The engine was originally designed as a competition unit with small capacity crankcase, dry-sump and scavenge pump. It had previously been fitted to the Dino GT4 in a wet-sump form, but only for the European Specification 308GTB was it dry-sump as originally intended. It was also fitted to the 308GTS, but once again in a wet-sump form. Image Unavailable, Please Login So to the camshafts. The camshafts from the Group 4 Specification Kit are Ferrari designated P6. The initial specified timing for these cams was:- Inlet opens 48 Deg. BTDC Inlet closes 62 Deg. ABDC Exhaust opens 64 Deg. BBDC Exhaust closes 44 Deg. ATDC The maximum valve lift is 9.25mm for both cams, with a duration of 290 Degrees for the inlet and 288 for the exhaust. Valve overlap is therefore 92 Degrees. The above figures are based on a setting clearance of 0.5mm. The Ferrari factory built LM308 competition car used P6 cams with the following specified timing:- Image Unavailable, Please Login Inlet opens 51Deg. BTDC Inlet closes 58Deg. ABDC Exhaust opens 64 Deg. BBDC Exhaust closes 44 Deg. ATDC The above timing is used when the sprint pack is fitted and gives a duration of 289 Degrees for the inlet, 288 Degrees for the exhaust and a valve overlap of 95 Degrees when using a setting clearance of 0.50mm. Clearly the inlet cam has been advanced 3-4 Degrees from the original P6 specification, the exhaust timing and valve lifts are as before. As to why this was done, one could surmise that advancing the inlet cam will pivot the torque curve to improve low speed and mid-range torque. The other consideration with advancing the inlet cam is that the resulting increased valve overlap is likely to make combustion stability at part load and idle conditions worse; as a result the carburation settings with such cams will be far more critical to ensure good engine running stability. This advancing of the inlet cam timings suggests that Ferrari realised that their P6 cam intake duration was a little on the long side; as such advancing the inlet cam may result in improved low speed torque with only very small penalties at peak power conditions. The result of this cam timing combination is a road car engine with an unusually large level of valve overlap; something that really was the last throw of the 2-valve engine development dice before the introduction of better breathing 4-valve engines with their potentially more modest cam timings. As a comparison the standard 308GTB valve timing is:- Inlet opens 30 Deg. BTDC Inlet closes 50 Deg. ABDC Exhaust opens 36 Deg. BBDC Exhaust closes 28 Deg. ATDC The maximum lift for the inlet cam is 9.00mm and 8.375mm for the exhaust. The above timings give a duration of 260 Degrees for the inlet, 244 Degrees for the exhaust and a valve overlap of 58 Degrees when using a setting clearance of 0.50mm. Image Unavailable, Please Login Standard/LM308 valve timimgs So it is clear that the standard 308GTB cam timings have a shorter duration than the P6 Le Mans specification. What is perhaps most notable in the comparison between the two, is the far higher valve overlap with the P6 Le Mans spec timings; this is due to both the longer duration and in the shifting of the inlet cam maximum opening point (MOP) to an earlier position. The earlier inlet MOP with the Le Mans spec P6 cams would typically suggest aiming towards lower speed torque, however when this phasing is combined with the much longer cam duration, an increase in cylinder filling/performance at the peak power engine speed will result. Based on the much lower valve overlap of the standard 308GTB cam timings, it would be anticipated that driveability at low loads would be improved and also suggests that engine setup (carburation, ignition timing etc.) would not be as critical. This would mean general carburettor settings could be used in production and calibration for each individual engine would not be required. Another noteworthy point concerning the use of P6 cams timed to Le Mans specification (as in the sprint pack), is that it will be fairly important that they are used in conjunction with the 9.5:1 high compression pistons that also form part of this kit. If standard lower compression ratio (8.8:1) pistons were used with the P6 Le Mans spec cams, combustion stability at part loads and idle may be worse due to higher levels of residual (exhaust) gas that will remain in the cylinder after the closing of the exhaust valves. So what difference does this all make? It is reputed that the sprint pack added 40bhp to the output of the engine, making it just shy of 300bhp. The exhaust note is completely different to that of the standard car, you would expect it to be louder with a sports exhaust fitted, but it is also noticeably ‘flatter’ in sound. When the timings and carburation have been set correctly, the car is perfectly usable on the road. The tick-over is both stable and reliable, with no tendency to stall when setting off. As with all 308’s it starts to pull strongly once 3000rpm is reached and builds up from that point on. There are no flat spots throughout the rev range, however at 5500rpm the engine takes another breath as it ‘comes on cam’ and launches itself towards the red-line at a vastly increased rate. Carburettor settings. Weber 40 DCNF Main jet 1.45 Air correction 1.70 Emulsion tube F36 Slow running 0.50 Sorting out the carburation took a little time. The engine had been running rich at the bottom end and needed no choke whatsoever to make it fire from cold. A slight misfire in this range became progressively worse as the engine warmed and became totally unacceptable when hot. Two reductions in the size of the slow running jets cleaned up the carburation and transformed the way it drove low down in the rev range. YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT HERE: i hope it is ok to steel the info this guy had, many thanx to him, hats off.. http://yorkshireferret.blogspot.com/2016/06/ferrari-308gtb-last-throw-of-2-valve.html?m=1
I have several different sportcars and i have tuned and build cars and motorcycles for 35 years now, one thing that really transform old point ignition cars is modern electronic ignition, this is something i will do with the car, and easy to go back to original if you want, this can make the car go much better on low rpm. i don't now what is best option for the 308, but maybe someone can chime in.=)
At the risk of repeating myself...it depends on the model of Ferrari. The first one to have a 17 digit VIN was the "400". As far as 308 go, all carbed 308 had the older designation. Then all injected 308s, starting with the "2 valve" 308 GTB"i"/308 GTS"i" had a 17 digit VIN. The ONLY carbed 308 with a 17-digit VIN were: - the very last batch of 12 cars - GTBs - produced for the United Kindgom (so, Right Hand Drive) which are the only carbed 308 with a 17-Digit VIN - the very last batch of 12 cars - GT4s - produced fro the United Kingdom (so, Right Hand Drive) which are not only the only 308GT4s with a 17 digit VIN, but, more importantly, a true collector's item, as these are the ONLY Ferraris ever to have been stamped with a VIN starting with "ZDF", which was the one allocated to the "Dino" brand. Rgds
There couldn't be any confusion between the cars prepared by Michelotto in their time, and a road car fitted with the sprint pack. A "true" Michelotto would be way above seven figures now (And at least 650 lbs lighter...). I write "true", because there have been so many copies, conversions, look-alike, etc... The "true" Michelootos are usually said to be: Groupe IV: Chassis #20951 1978 Pozzi, prototype, 1978 Monza 2nd, '79 Monza 1st, extensive history Chassis #19051 1980 Targa Florio winner '81, Italian Rally Championship winner '82 Chassis #19913 1980 1980 Carmagnolo winning car, 1983 Mille Miglia Rally 1st Chassis #26713 1980 Pozzi Ypres 12 Hours, Tour de France 1st '81, Targa Florio 1st '82 Chassis #21071 1982 Pozzi, 1982 Tour de France 1st, Tour de Corse 2nd, Rallye du Var 1st Chassis #20373 1982 Pozzi, Factory test car / reserve, never raced Chassis #31559 1982 Not raced Chassis #08380 1983 Raced in North America (built on a 308 GT4 chassis base) Chassis #31135 1983 Pozzi, 1983 Mount Blanc Rally 1st Chassis #18905 1983 Raced in North America Chassis #21883 1985 1987 Bridgehampton SCCA 1st Groupe B Chassis #18869 1983 Pro Motor Sport, 1st '83 Sicilian Rally Championship Chassis #18971 1983 Pro Motor Sport, 1st '84 Sicilian Rally Championship Chassis #22409 1983 Pro Motor Sport, 2nd '84 Targa Florio Chassis #18847 1983 Pro Motor Sport, 2nd '84 Della Lana Rgds.
you seams to now ferrari stuff, is it possible to find out ho installed the sprint pack on my car with this 11 digit number? F106AB27193
If you are very lucky and patient and contact the factory either via the app or via the customer services email they might be able to tell you where the car was originally sold which may give a clue as to where the pack was installed - they obviously would prefer to keep it a secret unless you pay several thousand euros for Classiche certification - it may be that the dealer and/or importer no longer exists or has records
I have never worked on a real Michelotto but I'm told the early 2v mechanically injected cars had no shared components from the factory Ferrari engines. Michelotto had totally bespoke cams, pistons, valve springs, cam followers, basically everything sans the crank.
I found the original owner ho bought the car 1979, he was a professional ferrari driver name Gustaf Dieden, he raced in ferrari on the 1960-70 He is now 82 years old and live in Sweden, i have talked to him today on the phone, he told me he raced in italy and also lived there for a couple of years when he was racing, be bought the car in italy and upgraded engine was build there, he told me that he was friends with the ferrari racing and engine builders because of his racing, he also told me that the engine was build special for him by the racing engine builder on ferrari in italy in 1979, so now i'm not sure that my car has the sprint package, maybe something different like group 4 spec? he was a very nice old man that love cars, he had a rather big race car collection, 1 formula car that he raced with and also original Lamborghini countach and much more.=) this is the car he compet with Ferrari 206s, only 10 cars was build, and this(His) car was sold for 2500,000 Euro Image Unavailable, Please Login
Great that you found him! If it's civil drivable under 3500-4000rpm, it's not a P6 cammed engine IMO. It's just not, there's no way. The brain-trust of engineers on fchat did a deep-dive into 308 2v heads, P6 cams, and head flow in general several years ago. The conclusion is that P6 cams need some 12:1 static compression and preferably a good bit more lift. The 2v heads just don't flow well is one of the issues. P6 cams have some .365 lift but huge duration at some 267 @ .050. Mind you, my 2.8L twin plug 911 runs a cam this aggressive and it's just fine on the street, but it has a ton more lift and better head flow all around. A P6 cam could be more street friendly if it had something like .450-.500 lift, but you can't get more than about .420 lift without serious head modifications. With just upgraded valve springs you can run .420, which is why 'sport' cams from companies like Cat Cams in Belgium feature just that kind of lift and something like 252 dur @ .050 they work fabulous.
i probaly will check what is inside, because Gustaf Dieden told me it was special piston and camshaft, he didn't remember if the head was ported, it is almost 40 years ago and he is 82 years old, but he said that it was streetable and was no problem to drive, will be interesting first spinn, have bought the car without looking at it.., im fairly used to high power cars so will give a honest review when have tested the car, a photo on where they talk about the camshaft and pistons, and for fun, a photo of one of my race cars, if not allowed, delete the post. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Im not 100% sure of this but 90% sure it is like this, i dont have the sprint pack, that im sure, im also sure that the engine tune was made in italy, yes everything is sprint pack, but the camshaft is stamped michelotto, and my research is pointing that it is michelotto that tuned the engine in padova1980
I have seen videos of him lapping that Dino - this only builds the case your car might have some special that nobody else got because of his factory connections. Not to take this down a crazy worm hole but there were 17 206s . Amazing little cars and quite possibly one of the most beautiful cars ever made. But I am lucky to be impartial on this because I was lucky enough to grow up with the first one in my garage. I have to do a post about it on my Bambina Blog. haha me as a kid in the 80’s
But how can i prove it, ofcourse photos on the camshafts, i have send a message to michelotto, ferrari is nown to have all cars registred, i hope micheletto have that to, but in 1979 ferrari dident allow someone to tune there engine, they took legal action, so it must be micheletto, or i hope so.
So you don't have a a true group 4 car but you have something unique. But to have stamped parts is special because Michelotto didn't hand out parts like candy. You had to be building a race car. I think was mostly done in conjunction with the factory. If not, you had to be on the inside / inner circle - like a factory driver. And there were many tuners and performance parts makers back in the day. They just weren't factory or sanctioned - but yours might be...
Love the photos Like the photos., so nice to see, about the worm hole, i believe you, only stated what was in the magazine., i have talked to Gustaf several times and im planning to put the 308 on a trailer and visit him, i think this will be a blast for him, he is 82 years old and still get so excited when we talk racing.
You want to ask him: how did he get the parts Was michelotto directly involved Did they do the work or another shop.
I have asked him, he says it was made in italy but not factory, then he doesent remeber ho made it, but he said that it was high comp piston and upgraded camshafts, he is 82 years old and dont want to make him feel bad for not remebering, so i need to take it slow, im gonna talk to him now and then and maby the memory will come when he is calm, talking about race cars make him very excited, he is a very nice guy, like him a lot...
open the oil cap and turn the engine over so the intake lobe is pointing up so it’s visible through the oil cap hole. I would at least be able to tell if they are P6 or not as the lobes are enormous on those things! Many times special cams from period have stampings around there as well