456M GT: where is the market & potential issues.

What's everyone's take on the 456M GT market? Not many are for sale atm and the price is all over the place. It seems last year sales peaked around $140K. Last December, a black/tan 456M was bid to $93K on BAT and now is being offered by a FL dealer in the mid $130Ks.

Does the 456m have the same window issue as earlier 456? I saw a 456M recently where both windows have a 1/8" gap to the C pillar weather strips. Both windows do go down when opening the doors and function normal otherwise.

How difficult is it to remove the dash?

Is there anything tricky to replace the aftermarket radio with an OEM Becker unit?

TIA!

 

You seem focused on aesthetics. The real money is in the driveline and chassis. Windows can be fixed, dash can be fixed/recovered. How much you gonna dump into the motor, transmission, suspension, etc.? A $130k car better have all that stuff sorted.

 

Major services was done in the TDF in March and Nero was done in 2020.

 

Shocks redone? Valve guides? Clutch? Motor mounts? Radiator replaced? (they were junk from the factory). Suspension bushings? Tie rod ends? The list goes on. None of that is a "major." which is really just belts, valve shim adjustments, seals, injector cleaning and maybe under plenum replacement parts.

 

Yes, same basic design. Ferrari tried some oddball updates so its not as severe an issue, but both cars have it. On the M it mostly manifests as you describe (my car too has it on the driver side right now)...on the list to fix.

Depends how they installed it....if they hacked up the wires your in for a lot of fun....

 

Window control electronics are completely different for 456 and 456M.
For the 456 Ferrari designed a theoretically beautiful system with a stepper motor that 'knows' the position of the window at all times regardless of the commands it gets. It also regulates the speed at which the window moves; for some commands quicker than for others. This requires a mindbogglingly complicated ecu that now, after 20+ years, often fails leaving the car basically useless (as the windows need to move up and down to open/close/lock the doors). I am working on a replacement ecu for these but it's difficult!
Apparently Ferrari also found that they had gone too far here and for the 456M revised the system to a traditional motor with end switches.

 

Guessing that the stepper motor driver ICs they used are now long obsolete - along with the microcontroller?

 

Well it’s not just that….the window lift mechanism itself over stresses (and stretches) the main bolt in the X of the lift. There are also minor tray/ergal issues. Ferrari never quite fixed that core issue despite multiple revisions

 

Speaking of ECUs...would you please explain the Air Bag ECU going bad issue? Is this 456 or 456M? TIA!

 

The electrics are fragile in all 90s era V12 Ferraris.
The fuse box doesn’t do a good job in preventing archs / surges, particularly with time/miles/heat cycles and if you jump a car (it can lead to wide spread ECU and relay damage)

To bolster/make more robust, add relay bypass for the fans and upgrade the fuse panel with one less prone to above

Same problem / fix for 512TR/512M/550/456/456M….

Looks like around the 575 was when things got more reliable/robust

 

100% that.

There are lots of crazy rabbit holes you can go down on a 456, including the airbag ECU. My mechanic tripped the air-bag lamp somehow while fixing my headlamp motors, etc…and I only noticed when I got the car back home.

So I went down that exact (scary) rabbit hole. After all was said and done, I went back and he turned the airbag light off no problem, no drama.

Dive in, the water is…expensive !

 

Hahahahaha! So eloquently stated

 

Shameless plug to my version of this exact part!

https://www.ricambiamerica.com/as1-456-550-cooling-harness.html

 

Yes, in my humble opinion should be installed on every single 456 and 550!

And when available, also on every TR!

 

Yup, that and the MSW steering ECU.

Best mods ever.

 

I havnt had a chance to write up yet but agree the steering controller is critical. Not sure if it works on GT or only the M though…

 

In due time! I hope to be able to develope them for the other models too.
Hopefully we can meet up later this month.

 

The FHP and MSW hydraulic steering ECUs will not work on the 456 GT, only the 456M.

 

Yes me too!

Yea thats what I thought....

The slightly longer version is this: I did just under 400 odd miles when I picked up my 456M (now waiting at my friends house for a shipper to pickup and bring over). Lovely car, the previous owner was a true steward. One of my biggest gripes/issues w the car however is the steering is far too over-boosted. The communication itself is quite good, as is the balance. BUT its hard to dial in/out steering angle without overdoing it again due to the over-boasted nature. Its much nicer at high speeds which again strongly points to the issue being too much assist. I have a standard 575 controller I will swap on and see how it feels with everything else remaining the same (after it gets here of course). I will also send my original 456M controller for evaluation. My guess is its curve going look like an even more extreme version of the standard 575 controller but we will see! I can't find an OEM FHP controller but would love to buy one so I could compare the feeling between it MSW version directly. My hypothesis (mind you I have no relationship financial or otherwise) is the MSW is the ideal spec for the 456M as the OE FHP will likely make the car feel too portly/heavy in corners. If anyone has one let me know....

 

Isn’t it a bit too much what you expect from a more than 25 year old car? You can modify what you want, it will be still an old car. But if you see it as it this, it is classy, well aged and a true Ferrari.

 

I humbly disagree.

I can see no technical reason it shouldn't have near identical steering precision with my 575. It shares a significant overlap in components. The chassis itself is wonderful (yes dated by modern standards but I am comparing to peer mid 90s cars). This is an easy fix too!

My E31 should not have better steering with its essentially late 80s chassis+ZF steering box.

 

MSW ECU will make a huge and noticeable difference. At least it did for mine (chassis 50033). Each Ferrari is better than the last due to random and continuous upgrades by batch, so if you happen to have the requisite SP Sensor from the factory then get the best program that utilizes that hardware specifically. Just my humble opinion after installing it. I understand Ferrari’s parallel software for steering assist relied upon an accelerometer which ended up “sloppy” or late. HUGE improvement in the driving experience.

I still want my MSW toolbox sticker.

 

No, the accelerometers feed info to the shock ECU. On the early 575M (only) with no steering position sensor accelerometer lag affected lead into-turn stiffening of the shocks. The steering position sensor and the hydraulic steering ECU are not affected by the accelerometers. The only thing the FHP or MSW hydraulic steering ECUs do is reschedule boost.

 

Well, if you come up with the ECU solution, I have a feeling you'll have a willing marketplace. I for one would be interested.

 

Happy to report I just closed on a 01' 456M GT. Picking her up tomorrow.

Btw, the front passenger isn't moving forward to the correct position when you pull the lever...is this a seat potentiometer issue?