Ferrari R210R York AC Compressor to Rotary Compressor Retrofit

Hello,

My Ferrari 412 has an the old piston type AC compressor (York R210R).

I live in a very hot climate and have been considering retrofitting a modern rotary type compressor that is far more efficient.

Has anyone done this before and any pointer on which compressor to use?

I understand that with the rotary compressors if it turns clock or counter clockwise is irrelevant.

In the case of the 412, the compressor turns counter clockwise (as the pulley faces the front of the engine).

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Polar Bear A/C in Florida sells everything you need to convert the car to a Sanden rotory compressor set up. Reasonable price and actually works extremely well.

 

I doubt you can maxout the big Aspera (not york) compressor. It robs an additional 6hp from your v12 (11hp total) , so efficient it is not, but powerfull it is and not in the same league as the regular (smaller) Aspera compressor fitted in Ferrari of that era (including 400i).

Before such upgrade, you should use a check light and see whether the compressor clutch is activated fulltime or not.

The 412 was "upgraded" with a serpentine condenser whereas the older models were fitted with a much more efficient (yet fragile) parralel flow condenser. That's what you should investigate first.

The format is very similar to condensers used in light trucks, for me it was so to say plug and play, there was even room to install a condenser with twice more rows.

A small ventilator in front of the condenser would also help: on the 412 the 3 ventilators are behind the radiator that sits between the ventilator and the condenser, on the 400 there was one directly blowing on the condenser.

You should also check the "defrost valves" for proper operation (they are next to the battery) .

 

My clutch is working correctly, but the compressor is not compressing.

The idea is switch to a rotary compressor which is much more efficient and will compensate for the R12 to R134 difference.

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The Sanden is more efficient but not more powerful. The Aspera is a 2 cylinder monster, on each turn it moves 10cc of fluid, which is probably more than a Sanden compressor can move.

For sure this power comes with the following drawbacks :

1. it robs 11hp of power,
2. it vibrates a lot
3. it is noisy.

On the plus side :

1. These compressors do have a separate wet sump that makes them far less fragile than the rotary compressors (Sanden), and really easy to convert to R134.
2. They can be easily adjusted at the factory for reverse rotation (i.e suitable for Ferrari), while a reverse rotation Sanden is more expensive to manufacture (lower volumes).
   
3. You can buy a cheap York / CCi equivalent to the Aspera for $200 and have a plug and play setup (Ok, you will have to replace 4 metric bolts), whereas the reverse rotation Sanden with the proper clutch and pulley will not be cheap.
4. Together with the Borletti clutch the Aspera looks nice in the engine bay... (the Sanden pulley and clutch do look cheesy)

If you want to reclaim a few HP the Sanden is the way to go but you will have to spend quite some time on the fixtures. If you want more power, keep an Aspera/York and optimize the rest: new condenser, Hydrocarbon gas (not R134). Stainless exhaust with heat-wrap would also help as the engine bay is just like burning hell (the timing of the engine is not very aggressive so lots of heat goes to the exhaust).

And please do not throw away this hard to find aspera: the rebuild kit is just $60+$40 (Gasket + Seals) on ebay, so there will always be someone who will be interested in such an original core (could be a nice upgrade for a 308, BB or a 400i)

Just my 2cts

 

Thank you. Where can I find the rebuild kits? Perhaps I should try to fix the one I have.

I did find a Chinese manufacturer of the York type compressors, a brand new one costs 98USD!

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Make a search on ebay for the following terms
Compressor Seal Gasket Kit for Ferrari with Aspera Compressors

This does not include the shaft seal that has to be purchased separately. You will also have to buy ester oil if you want to upgrade to r134. PAO is cheaoer but requires to fully drain the old oil from the system.

Please note that the aspera do have a slightly different layout than the york, so the york rebuild kit do not fit.

Just in case check that the original compressor was not already replaced by a york (seems like a york in your photo) . And to put the record straight for everybody : the proper york substitute is an ER210R (reverse rotation and rotalock fittings).

 

I have the York R210R installed on my cwr and the date Code corresponds to the year of the car, were some 412 equipped with York?

I have found this kits on eBay, seems to be very simple to do.
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Super easy to do indeed. The only issue are the odd bolts on the head : you need either a 7mm 12 point spanner or a torx one (don't remember which is which on the york and aspera).

The york has an hexagonal shape whereas the head of the aspera is more squarish, hence the different gaskets. The shaft seal of the aspera is also thicker and does not have the dust cover that was later added to the york.

York on the car sounds strange as the Aspera was using metric bolt which were more easy to deal with (at the maranello factory) than the imperial fittings required for the York. Maybe the borgwarner variant (as seen in your label) was "metric"?

 

Will see what bolts I have, but I am very sure it has never been changed.

Is there anyway to test the compressor outside of the car? Does it have a valve to suck and compress the refrigerant?

My dryer is new, and the condenser it's blocked, could the expansion valve be the problem?

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I would say indeed that this York is OEM as Borg Warner was a Ferrari supplier.

Your electric defrost valves are likely the problem. One valve closes the circuit that goes to the front evaporator, the other valves closes the circuit located in the back. Ferrari had to use two electric valve due to the fact that the system has to feed two evaporators. On the simple AC system (single evaporator), they could make it do with a regular (much more simple) expansion valve.

The valves either get stuck or the relays cannot sustain the back current they send them. You should also check for electric gremlins: these valves do need a healthy electric system as they can draw quite some amps.

Apart from the evaporator, I could find all my 400i AC parts on the Napa catalogue, so one can assume that the two electric valves are also generic items (I do not have any reference to provide though).

 

Do you mean this valve? Image Unavailable, Please Login

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Not sure, there are a few variants, but none do look like this. Could be a substitute?

In stock form it's a block between the firewall and the battery. It includes two electrovalves and a coupler (aluminium colour). So you should see nipple for the hoses and electrical connectors.

It is often called a defrost valve. That's a bad translation, but that's the keyword to use in your search.

Some pics in this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/rear-a-c-lines-and-defrost-valves.260010/

 

Is it possible that the 412 has a different set up?

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Just checked, I have standard size bolts on the York compressor - 12mm does not fit and 13mm is lose fitting.

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I opened up the compressor, very simple design, reminds me of a lawnmower engine.

The cylinders were perfect, I had the reed valves cleaned, put it back together and tested it by turning it by hand - builds up pressure immediately, so imagine at 900rpm...

Will put it back on the car and see.

Things to check :

Condensor
Expansion Valve


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I have a confusing regarding the oil in these compressors, I understand they an oil "sump" like an engine, should PAG oil be added here when switching to R134?

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See my previous remark...

A rotary compressor (sanden) requires the oil to be mixed with the fluid, whereas the piston compressor does have a sump that contains the bulk of the oil. That's a similar logic to the lubrication constraint of a 4 stroke engine vs a 2 stroke. The gas has to flush the oil so as to circulate it through the system, that's critical to the Sanden lubrication but still valid with a York as oil also serves as a sealant for the hoses and the connectors. R12 could mix very well with petroleum based oils, R134 does mix well with PAO. Unfortunately PAO and petroleum based oil do precipitate when in contact with each other. So you cannot use PAO if you still have some petroleum residues. Fortunately ester oils are compatible with both PAO and petroleum oils and do mix well with R12 and R134. The only drawback is that this is an expensive oil...

I prefer to use R416 rather than R134. This gas is R134 with a touch (3%) of hydrocarbon (butane). The hydrocarbon will easily bond with whatever petroleum based oil is still present in the system, so on the next drain you just flush much of the old "R12" residues. Here again a bit more expensive than R134...

One of the distinctive advantage of the york, is that it is holding much of its oil in the sump, so it's easy to change the bulk of it. Also it is more tolerant to PAO oil spoiled by petroleum residues. That's the reason why some so-so R134 conversion do work well on the York. But when factoring the servicing cost of the 412 AC, I think there is no real justifications for cutting corners (we are talking about $100~$200 worth of oil and gas here) and using R134 & PAO instead of R416 & Ester. Also this is a one-shot premium as once the system has been initially charged with R416, it is possible to switch to regular R134 on the next refill.

 

Great. Ester oils can be found as fully synthetic 10W60 engine oil for less than 10€ a liter.

When I remove the head on my compressor I did see oil on the left and right chambers adjacent to the cylinders of the compressor, is this "normal"?

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No you need POE oil, ($45 per liter).

It's normal to see oil wherever the gas is supposed to flow.

 

Here the compressor with the head off, notice the oil in the small cambers left and right of the cylinders. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

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I purchased this.

Will be replacing the oil in the sump of the compressor.

The question is, does it make a difference, since this type of compressor does not have oil on the refrigerant side and is all contained within. Image Unavailable, Please Login

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The refrigerant goes somehow to the sump, as you cannot open the sump drain plug unless the pressure has been relieved in the system.

You will also have some oil in the refrigerant as the AC shop just fill the system with both. Also it is my understanding that the oil coats the hoses, which makes them more leak proof. That's one of the reason why the hoses still manage to retain the thin gases.

That's also the reason why it is recommended to operate the AC in winter: this allows to circulate the oil in the system.

Your electro-valves will also require some sort of lubricant.

 

Wait, is this oil added to the high pressure /gas side or only into the sump of the compressor?

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You just add oil to the sump during assembly, your AC shop will do the rest.

When you go to your AC specialist and ask for a refill they just use a machine that extracts the gas from your system and subsequently separate the oil from the gas. During the refill they put back a mix of oil and gas (through the low pressure side).

For an "initial" fill, that's more or less the same process, as it is technically a "Refill"... The reason, is that they are supposed to use first a non toxic (but moister free) gas such as nitrogen (?). This allows to get rid of the moisture and also validate the sealing of the system. Once the system is deemed moister free and leak-proof, the shop can drain this gas (some oil will get out) and fill with R134 (+oil).

I don't now if they check the oil concentration or if they just refill the system with a fixed ratio (I suspect it's a fixed ratio).