Why did the 911 outlive the 928, 924/944/968? | FerrariChat

Why did the 911 outlive the 928, 924/944/968?

Discussion in 'Porsche' started by Bullfighter, May 23, 2023.

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  1. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 Bullfighter, May 23, 2023
    I realize this is probably a question that could fill a semester at business school, but interested in the Porsche enthusiast perspective. From experience, I know the 968 was a very capable car, and the 928 was among the world’s best. The 911 is now in its 60th year, so it’s an icon, but in the 1970s it was an old model with dated HVAC and ergonomics, and expensive.

    Was it simply tradition?


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  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Texas Forever, May 23, 2023
    What year did the 968 come out? The 928?
     
  3. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 donv, May 23, 2023
    As the owner of a 1981 928 and a 1975 911S, and as someone who has owned or driven all sorts of air cooled 911s, I feel pretty qualified to answer.

    The real reason is because Peter Schutz, Porsche's CEO in the early 1980s, decreed that the 911 IS PORSCHE, and there is no Porsche without the 911. End of story.

    However, from a functionality point of view, I can say that the 928 is vastly superior to any 911s of that era. It is fast, quiet, the HVAC works great, it handles very well, it has lots of trunk space, very comfortable interior... I could go on and on. The main reason I bought my 928 is that I wanted a vintage-ish Porsche that I could drive all winter through our rain, sleet and fog... and the 928 fills the bill perfectly.

    All of that competence aside, though, the 928 is not really a car that I want to take out on the track and drive to the limit. I might do it once in a while, but the 911 is so much more fun in that environment, because the rear weight bias allows you to steer with your foot, and makes the front end light and the turn-in quick and responsive. The 928 isn't bad, of course, but it's just not the same thing.

    The 911 also had an iconic profile, which instantly identified it to anyone watching as a "Porsche." I'm sure that was a significant factor in US sales... as well as the idea that the 911 buyer in the late 70s-early 80s might not actually take the car to the track or drive it super hard on the road, but they thought they might want to at some point.
     
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  4. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 Bullfighter, May 23, 2023
    Maybe it’s the “not a competition car” reasoning, as you say. I was very young in the mid-1970s but I can imagine the Porsche advertising and brand image around racing might have handicapped the 928. Maybe people viewed it the way many of us saw the first Cayenne.


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  5. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Bullfighter, May 23, 2023
    968 was 1991-95: 928 launched in 1978 IIRC.


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  6. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 Texas Forever, May 23, 2023
    By the '90s the 911 was a much better car than a 968.

    I think the 928 got a bad rap from the jump.
     
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  7. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 energy88, May 23, 2023
    Well, back in the day, IMHO, the 928 looked like something the Japanese had created but it did definitely pursued the GT market like Datsun was doing. Reminds me of a second generation Toyota Celica GT.

    And as for the 914 entry- it looked to me like an attempt to steal away Corvair economy car sales.

    The 911 series has proven to be Porsche's bread-and-butter vehicle.
     
  8. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Bullfighter, May 23, 2023
    I agree, although the 968 was worlds better than the original 1976 924. That original interior was barely 1980s Honda quality.

    I suspect Porsche didn’t have the cash or strategic interest to push the transaxle platform further. But I have driven a 968 cab and it’s quite good - actually great for a four.

    But the 928 supposedly got better and better, with the S4 being pretty formidable.


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  9. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 donv, May 23, 2023
    What I find interesting about the 928 is that Porsche had the chance to do a complete, clean sheet of paper car. I know they spent a lot of time talking to customers and asking them what they wanted, and thinking about ways to make a better car, and the result was... the 928. Which, as I said above, is a much better car... not sure it is a better Porsche, though.

     
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  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Texas Forever, May 23, 2023
    What was the price delta?


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  11. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Bullfighter, May 23, 2023
    Will defer to donv but IIRC the 928 was more expensive by a good margin.

    EDIT: Looks like $82k in 1993. My 964 from that year had a base price of around $68K.

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  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Texas Forever, May 23, 2023
    Big difference in 1993.
     
  13. donv

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    #13 donv, May 23, 2023
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  14. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 donv, May 23, 2023
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  15. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 donv, May 23, 2023
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  16. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 Bullfighter, May 24, 2023
    The 911 ad is interesting because by 1985 Porsche was already calling it “revered”. That’s consistent with the Peter Schutz ethos that the 911 was the quintessential Porsche.

    It’s also noteworthy because it lists some pretty minor (from an enthusiast perspective) revisions to the car over the years. Catalytic converters replaced thermal reactors; impact bumpers were developed; grills were added and deleted. Porsche intentionally trivializes some changes to convey that the 1963 version was right from the start.

    That ad could have been the writing on the wall for the 928, which somehow soldiered on for another decade.


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  17. BJK

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    #17 BJK, May 24, 2023
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  18. max930

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    #18 max930, May 25, 2023
    My dad bought a few 928s new. The first was in 1985 and it was $75k. Not bad price wise compared to the 930, still on sale in the Canadian market. His second was a 1987 S4 and it was now $115k and his third was 1988 and it was pushing $120k. It was price that killed the 928!
     
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  19. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 donv, May 25, 2023
    This C/D test of a 1985 928S says the MSRP (in USD) was $50,000;

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15110231/1985-porsche-928s-road-test-review/

    The 1984 911 Carrera was $37,500:

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15142185/1984-porsche-911-carrera-archived-road-test-review/

     
  20. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 donv, May 25, 2023
    I like the conclusion of the C/D 928 review, written by the great Csaba Csere (C/D had some fantastic writers in the 1980s-- I remember the excitement of the new issue arriving in the mailbox, and reading it cover to cover!):

     
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  21. buddyg

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    #21 buddyg, May 25, 2023
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  22. max930

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    #22 max930, May 25, 2023
  23. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 Bullfighter, May 25, 2023
    Could be that for the price the 928 was too “functional.” The 930 and Countach were always extreme and had no pretense of being normal, comfortable or practical.

    The 928 was seriously expensive, but it was competing with executive cars like the BMW M cars and Mercedes AMG. Badass cars but with a whiff of normal, starting with the engine location.


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  24. Island Time

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    #24 Island Time, May 25, 2023
    I thought it was in the mid 70’s that Porsche lost it’s identity. Wasn’t the 928 supposed to be the new direction of the company?

    (That was why the 2.7 cars were such junkers in their day. Porsche had decided to let the 911 go. It was to be relegated to the trash heap of history)

    Then, management was replaced when consumers balked. ”New Coke” is an analogy.
     
  25. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #25 donv, May 25, 2023
    It is funny, the 930 looks kind of outrageous (although not in the Countach's league), yet functionally it's as usable a daily driver as any other 911 of that era. I've been driving mine to work regularly.

     
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