Ferrari 412 - Failed Inspection. High HC and CO Values | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Ferrari 412 - Failed Inspection. High HC and CO Values

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 360modena2003, Jun 6, 2023.

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  1. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,932
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    If the PM7-12 mark is 60 deg of crankshaft/flywheel rotation after the PM1-6 mark (edit: raemin's figure confirms that), then use cyl #7, but the order of the marks would be:

    AA16 (for #1), PM1-6, CS10 (for #1), AA16 (for #7), PM7-12, CS10 (for #7)

    A cylinder fires every 60 deg of crankshaft rotation so the PM mark for the "other bank" cylinder should be (60 deg * the number of steps in the firing order away from cyl #1), but this can be in either direction in the firing order (for example, on a TR, the PM1-6 mark and the PM7-12 mark are 180 deg apart on the flywheel, but cyl #7 fires 3 steps before cyl #1 in the firing order, not after). You've always got the final double-check that the cam cap marks on the 7-12 cams should be reasonably close when the flywheel is at PM1-6.
     
    raemin likes this.
  2. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
    Hello,

    yes, the AA16 (for #1), PM1-6, CS10 (for #1), AA16 (for #7), PM7-12, CS10 (for #7) is correct.

    I was also thinking to use cylinder #7, HOWEVER the manual and a few here have noted that the valve clearance for cylinders #1 and #12 need to be adjusted to 0.50mm in order to perform the valve timing.
     
  3. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
  4. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
    Yes, your INTAKE and EXHAUST are correct.


    Now I need just need to confirm that I use #7 for the second bank.
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
    39,318
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Since that is the other one with the 0.5 mm clearance, that is the one you are using for cam timing.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Is the flywheel not a degree wheel? Have you ever done it both ways? I have. Now explain the advantage of a degree wheel for me please.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Makes no difference. Most of us use 12 because it is at the front and easier to access.
     
  8. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
    Hello,

    I can now say with absolute certainty that the cam timing is exact as it should be - AA16 (Apertura Aspirazione = Opening Intake) is exactly where it should be - this is very easy to see, because the AA16 mark is 16 degrees before TDC 1/6, meaning it starts opening 16 degree BEFORE TDC.

    The marks on the cam can be misleading, as only a few mm equal a significant difference in timing.

    As someone mentioned here, we 412 owners are fortunate to have a degree wheel with our flywheel :)
     
  9. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
    Here you can see where the INTAKE cam lobe was starting to open on #1. It was advanced by at least 3 degrees. (if you look at the distance between AA16 and AF8 = 8 degrees.

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  10. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,388
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    This is what I was wondering looking at my cranckshaft the first and last cylinder of a given bank do seem quite aligned: do you mean cyl 7&12 are at tdc at the same time, (just firing at a different rotation)?

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  12. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,460
    What a beautiful crankshaft - seems to be very well machined.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    And? Its a 4 cycle engine. TDC happens every engine rotation but cams turn at half that speed. Turn engine one more rotation and it will be at overlap, the position where cams are timed.
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    On an inline 4 1 and 4 piston are always at TDC at the same time. 2 and 3 are as well. On an inline 6 1 and 6 are the same, 2 and 5 are the same and 3 and 4 are the same.
    On a V or Flat 12 1 and 6 are the same, 2 and 5 are the same, 3 and 4 are the same, 9 and 10 are the same, 8 and 11 are the same, 7 and 12 are the same.

    Been that way forever.

    The basics should come at the beginning and the details and nuances later but its way too late now I guess.

    Look at the crankshaft. If that does not define self explanatory I don't know what does.
     
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  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    One is called "TDC compression", the other "TDC overlap". Ferrari in print refers to overlap as "at the crossing".
     
  16. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
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    May 27, 2010
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    Jeff Blair
    Years ago, I found it helpful to take a few courses on “basic” principles of combustion engines at our local community college. This video is great and you can see how someone might accidentally set things up at TDC on the overlap not the compression stroke.

     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Lets not confuse the issue any more than it already is. Overlap is exactly where cam timing is measured.
     
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  18. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    Yes, or put a simpler way - close on the marks on the cams.
     
  19. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    #94 360modena2003, Jun 13, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2023
    Another indication of bad valve timing that the intake valves are covered in carbon - and I have must have done 50KM at the most.

    The valves were removed from the head and cleaned when I replaced the exhaust valves and valve seals.
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    In Aston Martin tech data, that is known as "decoking the cylinder heads".
     
  21. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    In the case of the Aston Martin, I assume it must be due to direct injection...in my case, terrible cam timing.
     
  22. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    Could someone be so kind as to explain how my intake ports and intake valves got so dirty/full of carbon from the combustion chamber?!!
     
  23. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    Bad timing and bad fuel mixture ..the same thing this whole.thread is above

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    With cam timing so far off it was probably aspirating a lot of combustion byproducts back up the intake tract.

    In a suit I was a retained expert in I showed how cam timing led to catalytic converter particulates being in the intake plenums.
     
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  25. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    I completed the timing on the 7-12 bank, below are the pictures of where the marks are when at PM1-6.

    One observation, it was impossible to set the timing with AA16 and CS10 marks using cylinder #7, as the intake valve on #12 was touching against the piston.

    When using #12 everything aligned perfectly. Using 7 and 12 can be the SAME, BUT ONLY if you rotate the engine over one full rotation, but in this case the initial assembly marks on the cam would not match.

    Yes, both 7 and 12 pistons are in the same position, but one is one compression stroke while the other is on the "overlap" stroke, and as stated, the overlap stoke is the one used to time. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

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