348 Brake Pump Runs before startup but won't run AFTER startup!

I don't have any wiring diagrams for those relays. However, the 348 parts manual does show the wiring harness going to the relays listed as being for US and Canandian cars and are further divided into Canadian and non-Canadian part numbers. I suspect one of the relays will be for diurnal (daytime running) lights. The other relay is might be related to the front fog lights.

The diurnal lights, I imagine, require only ignition power and, normally on Ferraris, the front fog lights require the position lights to be on before they will activate (unlike the Euro car rear fogs which require the low beam headlights to be on).

The plot thickens....

(Sorry crossposted... seems like we came to the same conclusion)

Note that on F355's, the fog light relay is mounted on the frunk relay panel, not to the side of it, which is probably why the F355 parts diagram only shows the additional relay as being for Canada.

 

Maybe Miro can make sense of this. I can't see the connection between daytime running lights and starting. Sounds like some wires are crossed. There should be nothing in the frunk related to start (other than the ABS wiring)

 

I may know someone on the forum who will be able to provide a set of (at least) USA lights. These diagrams may show provisional lighting for Canadian cars.

To be honest though, these systems seem unrelated. Sounds like some wires shorting somewhere where they shouldn't be.

Any beavers been chewing on your wiring?

 

The USA Lighting wiring diagrams kindly provided by @EFerrari34 are going to take a while to interpret...

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/149177121/

There are additional relays shown at the top of the USA Lighting diagram, labelled "234" and "235". These numbers decode as "L & R Headlight motors" which may mean these relays are not the relays we are looking for. I'm not even sure the Canadian wiring version is shown in the USA diagram.

I'm trying to redraw the wiring diagrams, but I can't see wire colours or pin numbers. Here's my progress so far...

https://www.dropbox.com/t/ssHKyC2OMXw2Oca2

Newer wiring is drawn in magenta (not to be confused with pink "S") until the colours become available.

"32" decodes as side turn indicator. To me that means the turn indicator on the side of the car, but I thought USA cars didn't have turn signals on the side (unlike Euro cars). 32 appears to be wired into fuse 5 (daytime flasher) and fuse 17 (front fog). Having said that, I don't have a fuse diagram for a USA car. They may be labelled differently. Ignore the fuse labelling in my diagram until I've figured it out.

Does the USA 348 have combined daylight flasher/front fogs like the F355?

Here is the Euro version:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Found a USA version of the Owner's Manual.

Image Unavailable, Please Login
Is this labelling correct? Everything seems reversed... and no combined fog/daylight flasher. Did the later USA cars have different lights?

 

It is very simple - the coil of the Daytime Running Lights relay that you have is wired so that it gets +12V on one side at ignition "on" and the other (ground) side of the coil is connected to the Start line (grounded through the starter solenoid) so that the Daytime Running Lights, since they cannot be manually switched off, are temporarily switched off during cranking to unload the battery. Basically, this relay is connected in the same way as the Relief (unloader) Relay shown on my drawings:
Image Unavailable, Please Login

The current flow through the coil of this relay is causing the "ghost" voltage on the start line which prevents release of the Orange Relay. With the Daytime Running Lights relay removed, you should no longer have the "ghost" voltage. So, you have two choices: remove the Daytime Running Lights relay or install a motorcycle starter relay in place of your WR-1.

I strongly recommend the use a motorcycle starter relay, even if you don't have the issue with the Orange Relay (if no Relief Relay is present) - the motorcycle cube type starter relays are just slightly bigger than the standard cube relay, they can handle some 120A (the 348's starter solenoid's pull-in coil can draw up to some 40A), they are much more robust and you will have no issues if you have any unloader (relief) relay connected to the Start line. Basically, the coil of the motorcycle starter relay will perform the grounding function very well in place of the disconnected starter solenoid coil.

Not a very good picture but this is my installation of a Kawasaki starter relay:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

It seems odd that the low powered lights are turned off but the high beams, fans, window heat, wipers, etc, are not.

The USA wiring diagrams seem to be a dead end. I recall the USA cars shut down the low beam headlights when the high beams are on. This is what the two extra relays in the new diagram are showing. The Canadian wiring is a mystery.

 

Your DRL-s probably did not work while you had the WR-1 because this added relay, together with the Orange Relay, did not provide good enough ground (have 42.5 Ohms to the ground) for the DRL relay to switch "on". 85 Ohms of the DRL relay, combined with the 42.5 Ohms, produced (as a voltage divider) about 8 volts on the DRL relay which may not have been enough to switch it "on".

You can see in the document for Tyco relays which I attached in post #43 that the minimum engagement voltage for the normal coil version is 8V (the special version has 6.5V). So, 8V is a borderline and some relays may fail to engage at this low voltage.

With regard to other Canadian spec 348-s, they will most likely have the same issue. But maybe nobody else in Canada added a WR-1 or added a motorcycle starter relay?

 

Understood, but that logic doesn’t apply to the F355 and later cars. They all have relay/s for disabling systems with and without switches during start.

Do 348 radiator fans on a hot car switch off during start?

EDIT: It seems that late model 348's might have been the changepoint for stuff like this... I just noticed something new in Tim's @EFerrari34 HVAC diagram. Later model cars have an input into pin 24 of the HVAC ECU/Control Panel from the Start contact of the ignition switch.


Image Unavailable, Please Login

Perhaps this has the ability to turn off the blower motor and perhaps disengage the AC Compressor clutch to provide extra power for the starter? The HVAC control panels on early and later model 348's seem to have the same part number, so this ability may have been designed into the HVAC system from the start. There is unused provisional wiring on the back of the HVAC control panel shown in the early car diagrams.

I don't know if the impedance of the HVAC control panel should also be taken into consideration in Miro's calculations.

 

I've added the wire to my HVAC wiring diagram with a note saying this is applicable to later model cars.

https://www.dropbox.com/t/JiI6X8plFtDEHHvQ

Link expires in 6 days.

The old diagram even provided a gap between the dozens of other wires for this new wire. Unfortunately, I can't read the wire colour code.

I wonder what other gems are hidden in the new wiring diagrams.

 

No, the HVAC module is just electronically "sensing" the +12V signal from the Start wire. The signal is not going to any relay inside the HVAC module.

 

The issue is everyone's windows are slow, but only some cars have hard starts. Not sure the solution is a relay but identifying the actual issue. Maybe corroded grounds etc. Just seems odd its only certain cars not all cars like windows. Just a sense I could be wrong of course.

 

This is the point at which I started to get confused. Daylight Running lights are not side/marker lights are they (on Canadian cars)? Aren’t Daylight Running lights the Daytime Flashers repurposed?

Matt, if you’re not tired of playing with this stuff, could you confirm where your Daytime flashers are by pulling back on the stalk switch with the headlights off.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Does either of your Daytime Flashers stop working if you pull this relay?

Normally, on Canadian cars, do daylight flashers and sidelights come on when you turn on the ignition?

 

It's worth noting that the light units are country specific so maybe they are wired differently inside - try hovering your mouse over item 14 in the diagram and it gives a list. However, saying that it does lump Canada and USA together.

https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/Diagram/Ferrari/348-tb-ts/128-Front-And-Rear-Lights

 

I don't know if all 348's behave like this, but that sounds crazy

Image Unavailable, Please Login


I wonder if the modification was done in Canada prior to delivery. And are their variations in Canada?

Fog usually requires the sidelights or headlights to be on, then push the button on the centre console (vertical section). Euro cars mostly seem to have rear fogs only.