‘90 348- intermittent power loss. Like flipping an on/off switch. | FerrariChat

‘90 348- intermittent power loss. Like flipping an on/off switch.

Discussion in '348/355' started by JOHNCJ8989, Jun 11, 2023.

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  1. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2003
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    John
    I need brain power and expertise:)

    When my 348 is cooperating it runs like a dream, but lately it has started losing power at random. It doesn’t feel like I’m losing an entire bank, more like a cylinder or two. No slow down lights, and I know the bulbs are working. When I rev to 6-7000 and settle it back down it usually goes back to full power. A few times when I felt the power loss I just kept going at even throttle and after a few seconds it was as though someone flipped a switch and it was back with full power. Almost like an old 930 Turbo coming off its turbo lag and pushing me back in the seat.

    Things I’ve recently done to the car to try to resolve the issue:

    New crank sensors and couplings.
    New fuel pump and injector relays.
    New fuel pressure regulators.
    New O2 sensors and additional ground wiring.
    New coil packs and igniters.
    New NGK plugs
    I removed the cats and put in test pipes, so I removed the thermocouples and exhaust ECUs.
    Cleaned connections to MAF, TPS.
    Cleaned the MAFs carefully with appropriate spray cleaner.
    Checked for obvious vacuum leaks.
    Checked the plug wires and they look brand new.
    Ran a tank of injector cleaner.
    Balanced the MAFs to 383.
    I’ve disconnected the battery to reset the ECUs and let it cycle, more than a few times.

    I bought new fuel filters but haven’t installed yet. I’m familiar with clogged filters and how it makes a car feel, but this issue is so immediately on and off, like flipping a switch I don’t think that’s the problem. Maybe fuel pumps, or connections to them?

    It was stumbling/jerking at times so all the work I’ve done has resolved that, it’s just the temp power loss that has me stumped.

    Does it sound like fuel pumps, injectors or maybe even the ECUs starting to give it up? Maybe the MAF? I’m stumped..

    Thanks!
     
  2. ChoonHound

    ChoonHound Formula 3
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    May 13, 2022
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    Lucas
    I have the identical problem. I’ll be driving and then suddenly that engine note changes and there’s very little power. Then, as fast as it comes it goes. No lights.
     
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  3. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    Maybe this will help us find the answer:)
     
  4. ChoonHound

    ChoonHound Formula 3
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    I just realized that my 5/8 SDL light doesn’t illuminate at startup. Maybe bulb? My plan is to get those ECUs replaced and do an ignition overhaul. All stuff you’ve done. BTW, I have two brand new fuel pumps so that’s not it.
     
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  5. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    When you replaced your pumps, did you notice rubber debris from sleeve deterioration like some have?
     
  6. ChoonHound

    ChoonHound Formula 3
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    Dunno. Shop did it.
     
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  7. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    If I recall, manual says symptoms are as described then the 2 sides of the throttle linkage throws are not completely synched, it outlines the procedure in the manual.

    Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  8. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2003
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    Thanks! I’ll take a look and give it a shot:)
     
  9. KevZep

    KevZep Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2020
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    Kevin Bennett
    I keep saying it, and keep finding evidence in my own 348, RELAYS.
    Cheap and easy to replace!!
    I have had several "phantom" issues with mine which have gone away after replacing several relays relating to different functions.

    Agreed that it may not be that but it sure is easy enough to replace the 30+ year old electro-mechanical devices which do not last forever and are often overlooked.

    There are injector relays, fuel pump relays and so forth.....
    I am actually just going to go and buy a pile of new relays and replace them all!!
    I moved a few non critical ones to replace critical ones to find my problems went away......so new ones all around it is!!
     
  10. Ferrarium

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  11. Ferrarium

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    #11 Ferrarium, Jun 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2023
    Ok Just re-read the manual on this, the throttle synching affects throttle seizing or idle instability not mention of high rpm. I swear I read that somewhere but can't find it so disregard.

    In that post link you can see the aluminum relays, 30 years is WAY past their service life. I'd start there, I did that first thing myself. Bit of a pain finding them that are not chinese knockoffs btw. Easy to find cheap ones, hard to find the good ones.

    There are relays for fuel pumps and for injectors btw, (your post only mentions injector relays) as well as fuses. I replaced all the fuses too.
     
  12. Ferrarium

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    I pull these after the car has sat a few months to prime the oil system to build pressure before firing up. So I happen to have it color coded.


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  13. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    Yeah, I replaced the fuel relays and injector relays. I was hoping they were the culprit but no luck.
     
  14. Ferrarium

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    Sounds like a signal thing not a mechanical thing. Its hard on these cars when there is no CEL's but you can also try the pin out box that fits between the ECU and plug to check the components voltage/resistance. Those are listed in the manual as well.

    In front of the oil filter is a coupling that links both sides of the ECU together worth checking of its clean and not contaminated with oil etc, also cam position sensor is possible as is TPS.

    Things like TPS and cam sensor are so cheap its costs less to replace it than it does to spend time to test it. You can also check TPS in place with an intercept harness like m.stojanovic showed me that I did. Used them to reset the TPS to idle condition when I reset the with throttle plates then tested and linkage throw and various % opening per the manual..

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Pangea

    Pangea Formula Junior

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    Maybe just disconnect the cat ecus one at a time to prove a point.
     
  16. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    Still no luck. Drove it yesterday and when it’s not glitching it runs better than ever after my changes. On/off, on/off..
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Did you try changing one/both throttle position sensors? You said you only cleaned the connections.

    Does the 348 only use the TPS’s at idle and at wide throttle openings (like the F355)?

    I was thinking perhaps there is a dead spot on one of the TPS’s and pushing further gets past the dead spot.
     
  18. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    #18 JOHNCJ8989, Jun 14, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2023
    I haven’t changed those because I was wondering the same. Thought maybe they were more for idle.

    I think it’s is in the ignition somewhere. When it acts up at low speed I can hear popping in the exhaust meaning unburned fuel is making it to the exhaust. Was hoping it might be a bad plug wire, but I bought inline plug wire testers and they showed all wires firing good. At idle anyway…
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    I forgot that the TPS on the Motronic 2.5 is actually switch, not a potentiometer. Could the switch be intermittently failing?

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    They seem to be horribly expensive. At least there is only one of them on the 2.5.
     
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  20. Ferrarium

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    On the 2.7 the manual has adjustment at idle10,30,80% opening where they have to be synched within a spec. Doubt it's just for idle.

    Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  21. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    Thanks guys. I think I’ll order one and see if it’s the culprit
     
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  22. Ferrarium

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    #22 Ferrarium, Jun 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2023
    Is your car a 2.5 or 2.7? A 2.7 car has 2 TPS and they are pretty cheap if you search for the Bosch part number not the Ferrari part number, you have to set them to spec when replacing them its in the manual its pretty simple to do. Those pics above are me synching the TPS and throttle linkage. Thinking is not the TPS though. Still feels electrical like wiring issue or intermittent connection somewhere in the harness. I don't think its a component. Crank sensors, fuel pumps, fpr, igniters and coils, plug wires are the most likely suspects but you replaced those.

    Personally I'd put your MAF's back to where they were and not 383 unless your positive someone messed with them previously.

    These are handy for diagnosing wiring/component issues. Unit on the left is for the ECU's #95970072,the manual has the values and the pins for various components shown below a small section. You can do much of it without those boxes its just more of a pain counting pins etc. Diagrams below should help for that.

    Really need the diagnostic sheet to be thorough, hard to find hem but gets one going regardless.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  23. Ferrarium

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  24. JOHNCJ8989

    JOHNCJ8989 Formula Junior

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    Thanks for all the information!
     
  25. Ferrarium

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    Not sure where your located, I own those diagnostic boxes.
     

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