296 VS

Well said, sir!

 

Any announcement / unveiling time estimate? Before end of this year?

 

Previously in this thread 2024 launch prior to 2025 deliveries suggested

 

The design is finished

 

Exactly what I said after driving an Aventador S a few months ago. I expected to love it, and got out confused.

(Looks and sound were 10/10... but throttle response, transmission, seating position/ergonomics were all awful compared F12/812)

 

Do you like it better than the “stock” 296? I love the 296 design but I agree with you in some aspects. The bonnet line not lining up with the headlights, the two brake cooling slits on the side of the front bumper that look like the wrinkles around an old person’s mouth, the sunglass-looking taillights, etc. the essence of the design is amazing (as seen on the 296 GT3) but it needs to be cleaned up a little more. The straight-on side view is already perfect however.

 

You mean like this
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Yes, except I prefer the GTB roofline [emoji4]
View attachment 3575865

 

Is this the 296 VS mule or something else?
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roofline inspired by stratos
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The fact you're using Nuremberg lap times as the 'end all - be all' is the worst of 'magazine racing.' It stinks up the place. Not that I disagree with your central premise, Porsche usually provides more performance for a great price (and better reliability.) That's why there are over 1 million 911s.

Guess what? The fact there are 1 million 911s is also the reason I eschew it.

----

That said, your game, so I'll play.

Fastest "Road Legal" cars on the Ring' with MSRP (with % differential in time achieved)

6:30 Mercedes-AMG One ($2.7M) 100%
6:38 Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR ($400K) 98%
6:43 Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series ($350K) 96%
6:44 Porsche 911 GT3 RS ($250K) 96%
6:44 Lamborghini Aventador SVJ LP770-4 ($900K) 96%
6:52 Lamborghini Huracán Performante LP640-4 ($300K) 95%
6:57 Porsche 918 Spyder ($900K) 94%
6:58 Ferrari 296 GTB ($350K) 94%

*6:48 Radical SR8 LM(not road legal in US)

Let's take out anything significantly more expensive, afterall - money = speed.

That leaves us these:

6:38 Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR ($400K) 98%
6:43 Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series ($350K) 96%
6:44 Porsche 911 GT3 RS ($250K) 96%
6:52 Lamborghini Huracán Performante LP640-4 ($300K) 95%
6:58 Ferrari 296 GTB ($350K) 94%


I can only assume you've driven the RSs and the Black, Do you agree with Motor Trend, Car and Driver, these 3 are not even close to be suitable for a daily driver outside the track?

Maybe you like pain and deafness, I certainly don't. I needed to go to a chiropractor after any long stint in the RSs. Full disclosure: I have not experienced the Black, so I'll just take Road and Track's word for it.

Whereas the 296, hell - my grandma could drive it every day without having to don fireproof underwear and helmet.

I spend 99% of my time driving my Ferrari (OFF THE TRACKs.)

Now, I'm sure you'll say well - I only Track and that's what I 'really care' about. Well, come see me the next time when I'm in a 488M Challenge car. Let's see how that performs against your vaunted Porsche GTs.

But that's a "Track car" you cry? - well back to square one. Now if you claim the Audi is faster the. The 296, I agree.

*
And ultimately, we're both idiots being clowned and called man childs by Antonio Giovinazzi , James Calado, and Alessandro Pier Guidi - All 3 which destroyed Porsche this year at 24 Hour of Le Mans.

If we really want to 'settle' things, let us know when Porsche gets into Formula 1, maybe they can beat the soda company.

P.S.

I recommend you study the "Pyramid of speed" I can't help but think of it anytime a person of your persuasion comes here to start a pissing match.

 

The lap times published by the manufacturers are lies, it is impossible for the SVJ to beat that time with its 2 ton weight and ****ty transmission.

 

I make no claim on the validity of the lap times. Unless I was there myself, or an impartial 3rd party can attest, I take all lap times with a grain of salt.

That said, if your thesis is this is all crap, why yes I agree.

 

all of those cars you're left with in your list are drivable on the street imo, how drivable depends on which country you live in but it's a fact that the 296 is the most comfortable by a large margin

 

6:38 Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR ($400K) 100%
6:43 Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series ($350K) 98%
6:44 Porsche 911 GT3 RS ($250K) 98%
6:52 Lamborghini Huracán Performante LP640-4 ($300K) 97%
6:58 Ferrari 296 GTB ($350K) 96%

Absolutely agree. Recalibrated with the 911 as the benchmark. If @Chicko (or any magazine) racer wants to say the 911 MR/RSs are faster than the 296 -round the ring’ why would I have a problem with that? It's fact. @willcrook the MR/RS/GT are indeed all drivable and street legal. That’s said, I have a huge grin daily driving a 296, the MR? Not so much.

…..and these magazine racers are same clowns that decry Ferrari owners that don’t drive their car daily…that’s a problem with the internet, makes a lot of folks think their experts on topics they really should listen first, before speaking.

 

The time I have for a Porsche endorsed lap by the GT3 RS is 6:49 - whereas the 296 time is just a (talented) journalist's effort.
edit: just checked that there are two times for the Porsche records, depending on timing position - I'm too lazy to verify which ones correspond with the 296 timing.
Anyway, I really think best comparisons are made when the same driver establishes the times.
I do not know about the Mercedes and Lambo, but I really doubt a GT3 RS is actually faster than a 296, because of the power deficit.
The GT2 RS MR is a different case, because it has less power deficit to overcome and it's rather specifically tuned.

 

The RS/GT are faster on the Ring. That's okay. So they are 2% faster over 7 minutes on one specific track by two different drivers, on two different days.

How does that translate in the real world?

Every car can perform differently on various tracks. Nürburgring is the result of a successful campaign to make it the 'benchmark.'

The audio equivalent is akin to saying your speaker sounds the 'best' in Hollywood Bowl. So what? It could sound horrible at Red Rocks.

It's magazine contesting at its worse. Lousy.

I've found it's engaged by folks that only race/drive in their mind. That's fine, I'm guilty of that in my youth. The big difference is I listened instead of telling folks that actually own and drive these things they're wrong.

 

GTB 0 - Envy time is 0.1 seconds the GT3 RS 0-Envy time is 2.0 seconds. This time has been tested at Valets, Four Seasons Hotels, and several kinds of public cruising situations and cars and coffees throughout the world. Also on tracks everywhere.

 

Don't forget that Porsche builds their GT cars to set certain 'Ring times.

And they train their factory drivers over and over on sims at each segment as part of their benchmarking so that when the real car hits the pavement those drivers have essentially driven the car on the 'Ring several hundreds of times.

Nothing wrong with that, but it needs to be said.

 

Road cars are not designed for the track.
Track cars are not designed for the road.
it's an apples vs pears discussion.
It's about cost, and where does a manufacturer want to sacrifce one for the other.

Koeningsegg is a truly great example.
Fastest car in the world, also one of the most expensive ones.
Where are the track times compared to other cars....

Do we want/need a fast track car or a fast road car?
In normal terms "You want fish or beef sir?"

 

the reality is the most desirable cars are generally the limited edition track focused specials, 458 spec, pista, gt3 rs etc

 

.... that are hardly ever actually used on track!

 

Reminds me of a truly brlilliant Volkswagen commercial of the new Touarq.
You'll see the stereotypical accountant guy (short, bals, glasses) next to his Toureq on varrious very ruggid terain.
"The car can drive right through all this mud. No effort.
The car car drive all the way up this mountin. Just like that.
The car can do all this amazing off road stuff".

Cue in short text at the bottom of the screen:
"But we actually hate getting it dirty"!

 

They have become so because of marketing their "limited edition" characteristic - most people don't care about track ability, and (ironically) the latest track oriented models have become less and less relevant since technology allows cars to be more and more multi purpose (so that the actual difference in track performance between a regular model and its track version has shrunk).
The 996 GT3 used to be a bargain - it was when the price was set according to the actual demand for track oriented cars (i.e., demand by people interested in track driving).

 

quite possibly so, yes!

I remember when the 996 gt3 came out - I was doing track days regularly at the time and there were many owners there. Most actually weren't that keen on the car initally!