Turn signal always illuminated when headlights on

Just realised that pin 7 and its wire are not present in the spare lamp harness that I have. Could be because it is either for certain market (not EU nor US) or maybe it was removed. The harness is from a RH tail lamp, with slightly deformed/melted housing, that I bought because its lenses were very good (I am keeping the lenses for any "transplant", if I ever need it). I checked on my (euro) car and the wire to pin 7 (fog light) is orange on both sides, as correctly shown on your EURO diagram. You only need to change the colour of pin 7 on your EURO connector pinouts to be also orange (not red).

Wire to pin 8 is yellow at RH lamp and yellow/black at LH lamp. Your diagrams show the wire colours correctly but you need to change the colour of pin 8 on your RH connector pinouts to yellow (on both, US and EURO).

Wire to pin 9 is blue at RH lamp and blue/black at LH lamp. Your diagrams show the wire colours correctly but you need to change the colour of pin 9 on your RH connector pinouts to blue (on both, US and EURO).

 

Thanks, Miro .... getting careless in my old age. I just cut and paste the same image to all my diagrams without checking.


New Euro diagram here:

https://www.dropbox.com/t/kKVqDtoXLYt41qVN

USA diagram:

https://www.dropbox.com/t/inCecT5DVvHq7vdQ

 

The rectangular side lights ("Side Markers") are not present on Euro models so I do not know when/how they are activated. On EURO models:

1. P-switch - lights the two front (clear) Parking Lights, small 5W bulbs in the top inner corners of the fog light assemblies, and two outer red lights (5W bulbs) in the top rows of 3 lights of the rear lamps.
2. First position of the Light Stalk switch - the lights mentioned under 1. plus only the two inner lights in the top rows of 3 lights of the rear lamps.

If the Light Stalk switch is turned to first position (or further) while the P-switch is "on", the warning light for the P-switch goes off.

As for "Running Lights" (also called "Daylight Running Lights"), I understand these to be two powerful front lights, same power as the fog lights, which are normally switched "on" automatically with the ignition "on". In some countries, these lights are compulsory.

 

The diagrams show only a single light illuminated in the top row of 3 lights (rear cluster). This makes sense to me as you don't want to drain the battery with your Park lights

I think Chris was calling the parking/sidelights "running lights", so I kept that terminology. I could be mistaken however.

 

When I said "two outer red lights...in the top rows of 3 light of the rear lamps", I agree I wrote it somewhat confusing. By "two outer red lights", I meant to say "one outer red light in each rear lamp". So, two small lights at the front and two small lights at the back of the car. Under my item 2., I meant to say "plus only the two inner lights in the top row of 3 lights of each rear lamp".

(Age is caching-up)

 

Talking about the P-switch and the console upper switch cluster, someone is selling the 3 Sipea relays for the panel - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195943995835.

Ian, I noted your remark on the diagrams that "relays may be soldered in". Actually, they are soldered in.

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Pin 1 ("power from ext light relay 87 when energised") is effectively a ground when the ext lights relay is not energized (because it's many bulbs all connected in parallel to ground whose total impedance is much less than the "P" bulb impedance, but the individual current in each of those other bulbs is very low so they don't illuminate).

 

Don't panic... Miro and I are just throwing ideas around trying to figure out how this mess works. Just try to answer Miro's questions.

Could you clarify which lamp you mean when you say "left front outside running light". Do you mean E?


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Which lamps normally illuminate when you have your P switch on? F & E? On F355's, the equivalent of F & E are wired in parallel. The 348 digrams don't go into this kind of detail, but I can't see them operating any other way.

 

Ouch. And you say these panels are available (new or old)? If you change the whole panel, at least that will take the switches and 3 hazard/turn relays out of the equation. What part number is on your USA panel?

 

Isn't B a turn light? "Front direction indicator light"

 

Do you have a spare switch on your car and can the switches be interchanged (without too much desoldering/soldering)?

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(random picture from the internet.... Not sure what the "Clifford" attachment is)

Are the bezels interchangeable?

 

Well, that explains my long-standing confusion. I didn't know 4 lights at the front lit up with the stalk switch. I found a photo of a USA car with these lights illuminated:

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Or is this car broken, too? I see the light in front of the wheel isn't working.

Euro cars only illuminate the inner lamp.

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So you're saying that the outer lamps are dual function and act as "marker" lights and turn lights? i.e. the outer lamps have bulbs with 3 contacts. Or are all 4 front lamps dual function?

So why doesn't the USA Owner's Manual label the lights appropriately?

If 4 lights are normal, then the wiring diagrams are definitely wrong for the USA car.

 

The US version of the complete switch panel should be 147109 (not 147108). The P-switch is 134409 (appears to be in stock at Maranello, ferrariparts.co.uk at £15.96).

 

Questions:

1. Are (were) B & F illuminated at both front sides with only the P-switch "on" ?

2. When you turn the steering wheel light switch to first position, is the front RHS light B brighter than the front LHS light B ?

 

It seems that the US versions have the usual dual filament front indicator bulbs 5/21W (lights B). The 5W filament will be lit-up and will stay on as a marker light when the light column switch is turned to first or further positions. The bulb will flash between 5 and 21 W when the indicator is used. It appears that, with the column switch "on", the front parking lights F are also illuminated (they should be single filament 5W bulbs).

When the P-switch is activated, only the lights F (parking lights) should illuminate but we need confirmation from Chris (or from another member who has a US spec 348).

Are you surprised that Ferrari have some inaccuracies in their manuals and wiring diagrams?

 

It seems odd to me that both lamps F & B are orange if they are not meant to be turn lights.

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Can't have a red (or white) light at the front on US cars that isn't a headlight/foglight -- on all US cars of that era (and still might be) the law was that the running/parking lights at the front (and even front side lights) had to be amber/orange.

 

OK, diagram updated to show the outer lamp as a flasher/marker

https://www.dropbox.com/t/CyHVdQxp60A0gzyQ

If we subsequently find that there are two flashers per side, I'll add an extra wire...

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Still waiting for feedback from Chris but I believe that, together with the rear right indicator bulb, his front right indicator bulb (its 21W filament) is also illuminated with the P-switch "on".

The same is probably the case when the steering column light switch is turned "on" but, since the column switch also turns the 5W filaments of the front indicator bulbs, it may be difficult to see that the front right indicator filament is also lit-up (probably somewhat dim).

If the above is the case (to be confirmed by Chris), then it is likely that there is a contact somewhere between the Parking Light circuit and the Right Indicator circuit. This is likely to be in the loom side connector to the Rear RH Lamp - between the blue and yellow wires, i.e. between the pins 8 and 9 of the connector.

 

I was thinking the same thing back in post #67, but there were just too many other "strangenesses".

So how do we find the short? Those wires must be the longest on the car, running from the tail light, through the centre console to the relay panel.

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The wires separate before they reach the relay panel as they enter the panel via different connectors (H and F).

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Historically, have their been any similar shorts?

 

Chris also said (post #85), referring to, I believe, the drawing in post #84, i.e. referring to the LH front indicator, "I lose light "B" with the "P" switch on. This should be normal as the P-switch should light only the Parking Light (F). This also suggests that Chris's RH front Parking Light (F) and the Indicator Bulb (B) are both lit making him believe that he "lost" the B light at the front LH lamp. In fact, I think his front RH Indicator Light (B) is wrongly lit (together with the RH rear Indicator Light) by the P-switch because there is a contact (short) somewhere between the blue and yellow wires.

The blue and yellow wires are closest to each other in the loom side RH rear lamp connector, pins 8 and 9, and this is why I suspect that the short may be there.

Chris: We need your clear information as to what exactly is lit in the front left and right lamps (the rears we know) when your P-switch is "on". You also need to give us replies to questions in post #92. At the same time, disconnect the RH rear loom from the lamp and have a good look at the pins 8 and 9 and their yellow and blue wires for any signs of shorting (bridging) between the two.

 

I forgot that I have a spare US spec front right Fog Lamp. Had a look at its wiring and found that both, the Parking Light (F) and the Indicator Light (B), use dual fillament (amber) bulbs. Based on the wiring in my spare lamp, 5W fillament of light F (Parking) is fed by a yellow wire from Pin 2 of the 2-way connector; 5W fillament of light B (Indicator) and the side rectangular marker Light are fed by a yellow/red wire from Pin 2 of the 3-way connector; the blue wire from Pin 1 of the 2-way connector goes to 21W fillaments of both lights, F and B. So, the lights operate as follows:

1. P-switch: Only the 5W fillament of the light F is switched "on"
2. Column Switch: 5W fillaments of both, F and B, are switched "on"
3. The Indicator flashes the 21W fillaments of both, F and B, lights

Looking at your RH fog lamp detail below, the wires from the connectors up into the lamp should be as follows:
1. From Pin 1 of (2-way) connector: the blue wire branches to both, F & B (21W fillaments)
2. From Pin 2 of (2-way) connector: the wire is yellow and it goes only to F (the 5W fillament); the side marker E is not connected here
3. From Pin 1 of (3-way) connector: correct on your drawing (ground for all)
4. From Pin 2 of (3-way) connector: the wire is yellow/red, inside lamp branches to yellow to B (5W) and yellow/red which goes out of the lamp and to the side marker E
5. From Pin 3 of (3-way) connector: pink wire, goes to the Fog Light which is actually at your shown position A
6. There is nothing at your shown position G
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Since the function of Pin 2 of 3-way is not for the Daytime Flasher but for the 12V supply brought by the column switch, it should be connected to the same "network" as the one that goes to the inner two bulbs in the top row of 3 in each rear lamp and to the rear side (red) rectangular Marker Lights.

That there is neither bulb socket nor wire in the lamp harness for the Daytime Flasher (called "A" but actually at position G), can be seen on the Chris's pictures in his earlier thread (https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/front-turn-signal-assembly.681444/#post-149269442) and on the picture of my spare US RH lamp:

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This is the arrangement of the RH lamp harness inside:

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And outside to the connectors:
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The small connector at the left is an in-line connector for the rectangular orange Side Marker (E).

Hope you can navigate through the above info.