Driving Dynamics: 328 vs 308 Your Thoughts?

In stock trim I can't imagine ferrari released anything new that wasn't measurably better than what came before so I'd expect a 328 to be faster than a 308. Both however are honestly pretty s**t by modern standards so I'm not sure the debate has much practical meaning.

I think once they are modified all bets are off...it's whatever you make it. My experience is much like Sean's. My 308 always did quite well at the autoX and brought home a handful of 1st place finishes. That was 15 years ago when it actually ran but I have no reason to think it would be any less competitive today if given a fresh set of tires, the additional suspension upgrades I've made and of course if it had a running engine.

 

Forgot, GTB vs GTS, well a GTB is faster because you can be a little rougher into and out of the corners and its a bit more repeatable. A GTS can make the same skid pad numbers on any given day, but the additional chassis flex means the optimal camber suspension settings will be a little different and will be more sensitive to grip...more grip = more flex making optimal setup more variable....turn in the sun want 1 setup, the colder turn in the shade something a little different and it takes a bit more time for the chassis to settle into the corner. A couple tenths of a second to maybe 1/2 second on any given track would be my best guess. Adding a full cage would be faster yet.

 

For what it is worth, here is my take. By way of background, I had a 328 GTS (pre-ABS) for 22 years, that car was in very nice condition and when I bought it I would say the suspension components were in good shape. I also have a 308 GTB with some modifications (cage, stiffer springs, quicker rack etc and more power). So that car isn't strictly a stock benchmark.
Driving dynamics is a wide topic and very individual. I would say I really enjoyed my 328 and when you felt you were going quickly it actually felt like you were involved, it was much more rewarding than many quicker more modern cars, perhaps unsuprisingly. The GTS did feel a bit floppy and I'd buy a GTB next time (open top motoring isn't that important to me). I did find that when it went sideways, after a certain point I found it difficult to correct. But that might be a lack of talent.
The GTB with a cage etc is a different proposition. It is a lot stiffer and that gives much more confidence to me. It also has very sticky tyres and is really very quick on a windy road. However, I also find the same trickiness on the limit, which is that much higher than a stock 328 because of the modifications.
With the heavy caveat that I'm comparing a modified 308 and a standard 328, and trying to make appropriate allowances for the modifications without being able to articulate them (!) I would say that in my view the 328 is the easier standard car to whizz along windy roads at eight/nine tenths. It really is very useable. The 308 to me feels like it would give me a little less confidence than 328. Of course, these are comparisons between two cars which have a lot of similarities. Each of them are very rewarding to own and generally quite low maintenance compared to some.
I have read there are suspension differences between the 328 pre ABS and ABS cars.
I'm wondering whether the difference between 328 and 308 is bigger than the difference between GTB and GTS......

 

So Good!

 

And - Mike's car looks cool as hell.

 

Thanks for the extremely fun ride. Well done chap!

 

I have owned a bunch of varieties of 308s and 328s as well as a 94 348 TB "serie challenge." I tracked some of them too.

First: B vs. S. The Bs drive like a completely different model. You'll hear people say they are only different on a track. This is BS. You can feel the difference in the first 50 ft. I doubt there is any real objective difference in terms of slalom speed or skidpads but the feel is completely different. Personally, I can't stand the body flex of S models.

All 308s and 328s have a lot of suspension travel that really caps the limits in terms of handling.

There is not much difference in feel between a QV and early 328. However, the suspension change in mid 88 resulted in a different feel. Notably, the negative offset does give a sharper feel to the steering and it rides differently as well. Again, there is likely little or any difference in objective measurement of handling parameters. I do prefer the feel of the 88.5-89 vs. earlier models.

348s are definitely stiff. Some would say punishingly so. On the track, I found the handling unpredictable which hurts confidence and therefore times. It was sometimes scary at the limit.

The best reason to buy a 328 vs 308 is you will get a better engineered, better built more reliable car.

Good luck.

Dave

 

I appreciate your insight. I'll never track my 89 328. I almost killed myself in an old Shelby years back in Wisconsin. I pretty much scared the foolishness out of me. I'm a pretty conservative driver now. But ---- I do enjoy watching others tracking. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

Interesting topic. My thoughts are that it doesn't really matter to me, since they're both 35-45+ year old cars. Honestly, my F150 would probably be quicker than either.

To throw a semi-unrelated wrench into the discussion, when it comes to contemporaries, I honestly believe that my '78 Porsche 928 is a much quicker & better handling car than my '79 GTS. But I do enjoy driving the 308 more!

 

I think most of what you feel is that the GTS is sprung softer so they feel softer. I suspect ferrari just thought GTS buyer are looking for a cruiser. Once that is correct I'm not sure there's much difference that can be felt.

 

I can't even remember how many times I have written this, but nevertheless:
I have a '89 GTB (built on April 5, chassis #81085), and a '89 GTS (built on February 24, chassis #80515) side-by-side in the garage.
These are almost completly identical (built 6 weeks apart) and I have had the two cars for thirteen years now.
I entirely agree with everyone of Dave's words (@hardtop) in his post #33. The "GTB" feels MUCH sharper; perhaps it isn't much faster, but it is definitively a much more satisfying driver's car. And yes, fully in agreement with Dave's words: the difference is already perceptible in the first fifty yards.
The GTS has different assets, otherwise I suppose I wouldn't have kept her, but whenever I feel like driving, I take the GTB; for cruising, I take the GTS.
Nothing really to add to Dave's post, it sums up the difference perfectly.

Rgds

 

I have no doubt that both Dave's and your words are true, but I just don't know how you feel the difference between a soft chassis and soft suspension (springs and sway bars)? For sure the GTS suspension comes setup significantly softer than a GTB and I know when I'm in a mushy car or a firm car as that is pretty obvious but I'm not sure how to say "it must be the chassis" until I eliminate every thing else?

I did measure the chassis stiffness in my GTS and in a pure torsion load there is about 0.5"/g wheel movement.



I have pretty stiff springs and don't normally see more than about 3" of wheel travel in hard driving (which is about 2g with my springs) so that means in a 1 wheel bump (I think the only way to get a pure torsional load) the wheel will move 3" on the springs and another 1" from chassis flex, but its never that much in reality because the chassis is heavy which means a lot of inertia and that means it takes time it doesn't have in a 1 wheel bump to move. With stock suspension a 2g load puts you well into the bump stops and 5-6" of travel so when I say hard driving I mean HARD driving. The main reason I want a stiff chassis is to transfer torsional loads to use differences in the front vs rear roll stiffness to manage over/under steer which I don't have any real issue doing. My GTS has mild understeer at neutral throttle and moves smoothly to increasing (scary) oversteer as the throttle is increased because that is the way I like it set up so I can't say I feel anything I'd say I know is chassis movement, I can measure it and I know its there, but I guess I'm just not a good enough driver to say I feel it

 

I don't think the GTS is more softly sprung. The B is plenty soft as well. I sold my parts book so can't look up if the shocks, springs are different. What I can say is that the B is a nicer, smoother driving car. Every little bump crashes through the GTS chassis which I find unpleasant. BTW, the GTB chassis isn't exactly stiff by modern standards. I could sense plenty of chassis flex in the B as well.

 

For sure on a QV the springs and rear sway bar are different. I looked quick and didn't see the specs so I'm not sure where I got it in my head the springs were softer, but the part numbers are different and I know for sure the rear sway bar is small dia on the GTS.

The shocks say they are the same and stuff like bumps crashing through the chassis is usually a damping issue so that confuses me a bit. I remember when I replaced the shocks noticing a HUGE improvement in ride quality even thought the new shocks were actually stiffer over most of the damping curve but are softer at very low velocities so maybe that was it. That shouldn't explain a GTS v GTB difference though if the shocks are the same though hence my confusion.


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I have spent the whole night confused by the GTB/GTS feel comments....I know it must be true when 2 people who own both make nearly identical comments but I frikin love driving my GTS and it wins at autoX events. I spoke to Sean (the track video on page 1 guy), his 2 308s are GTS's and he seems to love the feel and perform. I guess the thing in common is we've both modified the suspension. I drove a GTB once some years ago (relatively gently as it was not mine) and all I notice was the car was both less responsive and harsher riding than mine...which is most likely down to the shocks for the harshness and springs/tire sidewalls (I run low profile 18s which should also make the ride more harsh) for the responsiveness. Comparing stock to modified is in no way fair but I guess my point would be I still believe a good setup makes a good driving experience and is much more noticeable than small model year changes to a-arm geometry or chassis flex numbers.

Doesn't matter I guess, I love the car flex and all

 

A properly setup S is still a very good handling chassis for what it is. But there is a difference in chassis flex between both that is noticable when pushing to the limit. Esp if the B has been setup and tuned. For whatever reason I was gifted with a highly sensitive butt dyno/accelerometer (really it's in the ears) but cursed with being a giant, so at 6'4" and nearly 300lbs I'll never be a competitive driver. And very likely my giant ballast weight highlights the Delta between them.
We've got Nick's B dialed in, suspension brakes etc.. and way over powered engine. While it'll get unsettled it happens later then the S we have as well, that's also setup. For awhile the S was the test mule chassis as most all clients had S chassis.. but it drove us nuts with the poor handling of pushing the engine builds to their breaking point. So the B became the test mule. Side note: you might be the only other person I know that has pulled and put an engine into these chassis more then myself

Of the S's I prefer the 328, better balance and squat (pitch) under acceleration in both vectors.

 

[QUOTE="smg2, post: 149397013, member: 6520"
We've got Nick's B dialed in, suspension brakes etc.. and way over powered engine. While it'll get unsettled it happens later then the S we have as well, that's also setup. [/QUOTE]

Unsettling the chassis? You're not supposed to do that, smooth is fast

This is a 2004 video and the quality is awful but 500+hp, 420ftlbs torque, lock to lock 1/2 a dozen times, mostly 2nd gear but the final straight is 3rd and never unsettled or out of control. The setup on that day should have been 400/250 stock front sway bar, no rear bar, DOT legal tires, 1st place in Street Modified 2 (non-OEM turbo or supercharger or Nitrous or same brand engine swap, over 2.0 liter displacement). The 400lb/in front springs are about double OEM I think.....I'm remembering measuring the stock springs at 180?





The setup now is 800/500 hp/tq and also 800/500 F/R springs with the car lowered about 1 inch from where it was in the video, same shocks, same front only OEM sway bar but I don't have a lot of time with it as its new with the new engine. It feels pretty good generally. It CAN be made unstable by doing stupid things with the throttle



but barring intentional stupidity it behaves very well and I just don't know what more I could want? (beyond getting the stupid engine running again ). This makes me wonder if we're maybe talking about a driving style thing where the GTB tolerated a more digital style where the GTB rewards smoothness?

 

Ahhh I see. Very cool. My autocross days were behind the wheel of German cars..I know..boo..

For the Ferrari's it's been either high speed track and roads and a bunch of backwoods private land with decent roadways where hitting redline in 5th really puckers the sphincter. But I digress, redline 3rd & 4th thru the windy bits and there's a definite Delta between S&B, esp when the road isn't smooth. Oh and driveway aprons I can feel the flex difference.

In the end they're still a hoot to drive!

 

Mike,

I really would be at loss to make any comment about your car, your modifications, etc...it's way above my knowledge.
(And this is why I have never commented in the thread about your engine, despite being in awe of what you have done)

What I am trying to say is that when you have a GTB and a GTS of the same version ("Euro" vs "Euro", "US" vs "US", etc..) of the same model (for instance 308GTB QV vs 308GTS QV) strictly stock, standard, unmodifed production cars and close on another on the production line; and when you can, as I can, step out of the GTS after a drive and start another one back-to-back with the GTB, you can't be left with any doubt about which is the driver's car: the GTB feels much SHARPER.

I bought the GTB first, and the GTS two years later, with the intent to make up my mind about which one I liked the most, and sell the other one.
In the end, I kept both, because they are really very different animals. When I feel like driving, I always end up with the GTB keys. When the weather is nice and I feel like cruising, I take the GTS.

Rgds

 

Thankyou for the kind words and make no mistake, I am in NO WAY questioning your GTB v GTS assessment. As you say, you really can't get a better back to back comparison than have both as you do. No way to question that.

The rambling I'm on about is just the engineer in me wonder how much is:
1) The chassis - that just is what it is short of welding more metal
2) The setup - Ferrari made the GTS suspension softer. Perhaps they did it to compensate for chassis or perhaps it was a marketing call or maybe a bit of both. Whatever the reason(s), the GTS was setup to roll around more.
3) Noise and vibration - Open top cars tend to be louder and with the top off you'll hear more of the higher frequency noises which are less solid sounding kinds of noises. I know factories spend a lot of time on getting the right sound and vibrations to the driver. For example, and this is a unique to me but, I was surprised how different driving my car felt with TR engine mounts vs tired old QV mounts, much more "buzz" in the steering wheel was my first reaction which made me remember reading Goldsmith who did the first V12 conversion talking about using 2 Dayton mounts not 4 because 4 vibrated too much. I'm used to it now but shockingly different feeling driving TR v QV mounts.

Once the modifications start, its mostly a whole different discussion although Scott is insisting even then the performance difference is clear. I have no idea as I've only messed with a GTS and perhaps I should keep it that way so I never find myself suddenly unhappy with it

 

Mike,

I suppose you know this already but...there is actually more metal in the GTS chassis already. Compared to the GTB, there is an additional chassis tube running in the door sill, from behind the front wheel arch to the front of the rear wheel arch, doubling the chassis member already there.
If you look at a GTS door sill, there is a "ridge" or a "bump" of about one inch and a half in height in the door sill that is not there in a GTB door sill, which is flat.

Rgds

 

That makes sense. I knew they added because the weight is higher but I didn't know where exactly.

Mark

 

I have gone back to 14" XWXs on my 1978 GTB and love the handling. I feel like Taruffi drifting through curves. Efficient and precise? No, but it's the way that old car was made to drive and I'm not fiddling with it. Bruno Borri once commented "You a-gotta work to drive a-these a cars." And, yes, my late buddy's '88 GTB was a superior handling car in all respects.

 

328 has more powere and better gas mileage