V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

I will get the heads back off, get some kind of clamp on it and confirm where they are.

For certain they are not where I set them originally, but I'll confirmed

 

I've also requested a couple quotes for gas filled metal orings...no idea what they cost but possibly a good solution.

 

Works great on F50.

Iron heads and block.

 

Just got a budgetary quote of 16-20 weeks, $3500-$5000 to get 10-20 seals. At that price I don't think I'd be willing to test them as both the seal and flame ring which is which is what I'd end up with using the existing liners and/or piston so this thought will go on the back burner for now.

 

"you're killing me smalls"

Please consult with cometic.. if you need Bills contact info, lmk.

 

I have a request into cometic, someone will be with you shortly.

Yesterday I heard back from Murray Glegg form Glegg manufacturing. He had a few questions but seemed confident he can sort out my issues. I mentioned I would be rechecking the cylinder/deck height relationships and as I was typing this got an "oh that's critical..." response so so I may be doing more engine work as Brian suggested. I guess I'll make some kind of tool to push down on the liners and see if they are moving and where they land.

 

Heads off and everything clean again. The hylomer extruded with enough pressure to force the copper flame rings into the bore so they are scrap.
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I made a simple fixture to put pressure on the liners and measured to the protrusion. The highest is +0.0004", the lowest -0.0008". Have to wait to see what Murry says about that.
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Dang, down into the "tenths".. so for non thermal effects.. essentially zero to deck possibly just below. And that's assy with O rings on the liners. Brian's very likely right, might need to deck the block.

 

Then again... MLS works with zero deck.

 

Ok another post..
I don't recall, do your heads have a quench pocket that matches the bore?

 

I'll reply in 1 post. I will see what Murray thinks about the heights and go from there.,,,leave it, deck it or shim them.
My engine is setup up so the head gasket is the quench. The pistons come 0.015" out of the bores, the gasket is/was 0.055", leaving a 0.040" quench area. That means going a bit thicker on the head gaskets is ok but ,050" is about the minimum.

 

Is that a measured 0.015" from the liner uncompressed? Or calc'd?
I was wondering if the head had a step that was allowing too much vertical movement and/or not enough compression on the liner, doesn't sound like it.

Be interesting to hear what Murray says.

A thought.. your fancy tq bar to measure liner protrusion, think there's a different measurement with a section of the gasket in place?

 

Measured from the deck.

Yes, I assume the deck flexes, but for sure the sleeves were down on the shoulder.

 

While i wait on gasket guy its back to brakes. I ordered a 3rd proportioning valve, and a couple Tees and 2000 psi transducers. The plan is get the master cylinders swapted this weekend and by the following to rest of the bits will be here.

 

OEM liners have a step, Ive had to eliminate that step in the past to get the protrusion right after decking a block that had a .010" difference from one bank to the other. Having a flat top liner made no difference in sealing, in fact it might've made it better but the point is without the o-ring .002 - .004" is the target and wow do they ever protrude once you put the o-ring on for final assembly. After all the welding you did and you didn't stress relieve the block I wonder if some of your problems are popping up for that reason. The last welded block I had to fix got heat cycled in the local powder coaters oven before final machining and I noted the before and after main saddle alignment, it shifted .0015". My approach now if it was my engine and I skipped relieving it would be to take it completely apart and measure everything, (deck to crank squareness, saddle alignment and so on) then throw it in the powder coaters oven and check it again, it might be an eye opener but if you don't check how do you know?

 

I guess in hindsight I'd have done a few things different and using a heat treatable fill rod and reheat-treating are on that list. At this point Its seen many heat cycles, and had seen quite a few by the time I was repairing the stuck valve damage which included lapping the mains (and for sure there was a little movement) and re-fitting the liners.

The liner protrusion has me confused though...I measured it when I made them so something has moved, weather its a simple surface finish to corner touching thing or something more serious with the deck deflecting. Its only like 3/8" thick so that should be a stress relaxation thing...but who knows. I'll see what Murray says and if need be deck the block while he's making the gaskets.

 

Started in on the brakes. All the bits aren't here but I did swap out the master cylinders which took longer than I hoped. Way back I changed my mind on where I wanted the pedals height set after I'd already built the pedal box and ended up shortening the pusher rods on the masters, so those also had to be swapped. My clutch pedal has an adjustable pedal stop and going from a 0.7" to a 0.75" master I need to reduce the allowed travel by 15% or risk damaging the clutch
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Then I had had machined the clutch pedal to accept a standard brake light switch to add clutch position to the ECU for stuff like launch control or maybe push button start...but the stupid switch didn't want to thread in properly because the molded threat were oversize but eventually I got it.
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Still waiting the 3rd proportioning valve, the pressure sensors and tees plus I'd forgotten that I used the original rear brake line for the clutch and then used US sized stuff for the new rear line US stuff on the rear line so I need to order the correct Tee for that.

I also started playing with reading the sensors. The ECU always reads all the inputs so all I need to do is connect is to see it, but seeing it as 0-2000psi instead of 0-4.5V means converging in the ECU or as a virtual channel in the tuner. I set it up in the ECU which is dead simple, Channel list>Add Channel>analog conditioner
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Then name it, select an input channel, tell it what the sensor should read and what the sensor voltage output is. That's it, now the ECU has a special channel for front brake pres that can be viewed in the tuner or added to a data log.
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I decided to created it in the ECU because I think I will also add an brake malfunction light then lights if the rear pressure is not correct compared to the front pressure. With the balance bar and all the proportioning valves it seems like to would be easy for something to be wrong or a master cylinder failure, anything that causes the f/r bias to be out off from where I set it. The relationship is a curve so channel list>Add Channel>1D table and plug in the info from the spread sheet I made. Last winter or the winter before I thought it was a good ideas to use the "slow down" light as a malfunction indicators and the Brake warning light as a shift light since its on the tach and easy to see, but now that I'll have a brake warning maybe I'll blink it for a brake issue. Need to think about that.

 

Now that all my brake parts are here, gasket guy pointed at the factory liner height specs and said I should fix it so the rest of the engine needs to come apart. Then the question is do I trust a local shop to follow my directions or do I deck so I've no one to blame but myself? I've found that when instructions are odd, mistakes tend to follow but my machine is really not big enough which also leads to problems....

 

Absolutely true.

I have a 330 block right now. Liners are all the same and true. In the block protrusion is all over the place even on the same liner depending on where it is measured. We are going to deck the liners in the block and make them all true installed then pull them and deck the block until protrusion is where we want it.

 

Decking the block shouldn't be that big a deal. Tom Yang uses a really good machine guy who works on Ferrari stuff regularly, might be worth getting it to him in NY.

 

Yes, decking a block is easy for a machine shop....understanding why I'm asking for a specific amount and why it matters. Normal is parallel to the crank and both side and about the same distance and I am about certain most places will ignore the words coming out of my mouth and hear "deck the block".

 

If you do not have a machine shop you trust, go find one. There are still a few out there but it wont be the one down the street. When I moved to Texas 10 years ago they were such a disaster around here I was sending everything back to California for years. They all retired. Finally found one here but hes nearly 100 miles away out in farm country. When I explain what I need he gets it and can do it.

 

Same here, nothing within an hour from me but glad to find someone that does things properly. The downside is he's in his early 70's so I'll need to find someone else in the near future.

 

Does anyone know of a good machine shop in or near Massachusetts?

 

I honestly didn't have a lot of motivation today thinking about the liners and since the pedals here still laying on the bench I worked on that a little. I kept screwing up what lines I needed and they gave me a wrong one I didn't notice until I'd bent it, but 3 trips to the store later the rear has its 3 proportioning valves and a pressure transducer. Homely adding the transducer to the front tomorrow goes smoother.

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The EMPI vales is the finest chinesium, heavier than the wilwood but still has a plastic adjusting knob and lettering the just wipes off

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