SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP

I found a few more things in my notes today that I wanted to share.
Last winter/spring an official dealer made contact with Ferrari and this was the first info we received - via phone - nobody has contacted ferrari SPA before about #20005, it was produced September 76, sold via/at dealer 1(?) Blue Sera and Pelle Beige.
This sentence also came up;
FLUSSO ENTI INTERNI PER VENDITE
Which means nothing? Or at least it is difficult to understand/translate - even for an Italian.

Based on the official document (earlier in this thread) from;
Beat Bächler
Head of Data Management Section
Federal Department of the Environment, Transport, Energy and Communications DETEC
Federal Roads Office FEDRO
Road Traffic Division
Applications and data management
Data management

I have made this timeline my #20005

First registration 30.10.1977
1st IV canton: The first canton where the vehicle was registered. In this case Zurich
1st IV date: The first date of entry into circulation. 10.03.1978
The date of the change of keeper/owner (Zurich). 11.04.1988 (Lausanne)
Change of keeper date: The date of the change of keeper/owner. 06.11.1996 (Geneve)
IV/AV Code Canton means: The canton where the vehicle is/was registered.
In this case Geneva Date: 20.11.2001 (This means the date of registration (in or out of circulation) in the canton of Geneva)
Imported to Norway in 2007/8
Jon Tore Grimsrud owner 2008 - 2022

 

I also found this chassis plate interesting. This car was sold by Oldtimer Farm in Belgium a few years ago. This was a Vetro - rebodied to steel. The numbers are wider and more similar to to mine.
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The ID plates for Europe vary a lot from the North American versions.

There's a good example of a stamped "5" and perhaps yours was just traced with a scriber in an effort to enhance it.

Serious subterfuge usually will show at least the welding and grinding effort required to actually "restrike some numbers"..

A Vetro converted to steel!
In our modern market that's an expensive mistep.
But at the time the Vetro in USA was not very popular, unless they were in love with the shape and had to have the "first one on the block"..

 

Big Tex
Here in a pic of the stamping on my GTB ending in 5


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Did you upload the pic?

 

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Sorry had trouble with pic download.

 

Some more examples from the World Wide Web - I hope this is okay - if someone discover their car I will remove the image. The shape of the numbers are many once you start comparing them. I am pretty sure that there must have been more then one punching tool set around, and that these had small differences.



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How does Blu Acapulco look?

 

I have been told that the color derives from Blue Ribot - a color from the 60ties. Commercially this color was named both blu Dino (metalizzato) and blu acapulco.
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Regarding stamping on the frame, was this done different ways? One solution was to weld in a pre-stamped part? and the other one to use the stamp tools directly on the tube? And therefore the denting on the tube occurs?

 

Here are two examples - a bit difficult to see on one of the images.
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I was looking over the posts in this thread this evening and I wanted to ask you what reflections you have concerning the Swiss document stating that my car first date of entry into circulation was 10.03.1978 - and in this case in Zürich. It was before that registered late October 1977.

I don't find it plausible that car could have been tampered with in that short period before that? Unless it was tampered with at the factory by the factory itself? Could this also explain the unwillingness from Ferrari SPAs side?

Another thing that came up is that in our search (official dealer in Scandinavia) in the Ferrari DB March 2022 - was this very surprising fact that there earlier hadn't been been made any inquiries about s/n 20005(!).

 

Andreas,

I won't speculate; I don't have the facts, therefore anything I might say won't help. Except that OF COURSE nobody hadn't made an inquiry about #20005!
Knowing that this number is contested, asking the factory is a double-edged sword.
If you have a car numbered 20005 and are not sure...then you ask the factory, and the factory answers "this car is not #20005": it's official, then...and ruined for good. Better leave in doubt than be sure...
The french Cardinal de Retz (= one of the advisors of Cardinal Richelieu in the 17th century, called the "Grey Eminence") already said it very well:
"On ne sort de l'ambiguité qu'à son détriment" ("You never leave ambiguity without a penalty").

Rgds

Rgds

 

Nerofer,

I usually find your posts and comment both insightful and interesting. My impression is also that you like to speculate and discuss. Here you sound an annoyed and very self content and also very cathegorical. First of all Ferrari have not said that my car isn't 20005 - they have said the numbers are not correct - this information I have already sheared. "Ruined for good..." So dramatic - so all the discussions about incorrect number, non matching components, different eras in the Ferrari history, inconsistency, mess at the factory etc. all of a sudden have lost its relevance? I guess we have a different approach to sorting out things and searching for facts, so when you are in doubt about things you stick your head in the sand?.

 

I think the point was this, you know for for something is not right with the numbers. Maybe something small, maybe something big, you don't know. So lets say you pay ferrari to tell you what chassis and engine serial numbers match your build number. You know for sure they are not going to say all is well and with 4 cars sporting the same chassis number at best you have a 1:4 change yours is the correct one....which means a 3:4 change it isn't.

If they look up the correct number and it isn't what's on you car then what? Almost certainly 3 of the 4 cars were stolen and renumbered, maybe all 4 as the original might have been wrecked which could be why they had the paperwork. Here in the US when a stolen car is found it is confiscated and returned to whoever owned it when it was stolen. If its an old crime there will be no charges but you will be without your car and the only way to be made whole is to sue whoever sold it to you, and they sue whoever they got it from and so on.

I just read a story last week about a '68(?) Camaro living a happy life that was seized and given to someone else after numbers matching a car stolen 20-30 years ago were found on it's firewall. This is basically where you are if the build numbers don't match the chassis number but r ight now you have a very nice car with proper paperwork...I'm not sure I would ever speak of it again knowing the most probably outcome. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

Thanks! - but I do not agree. There are only two cars not 4. The blue vetro that was up for sale at eBay in 2012 were not sold/removed from eBay - apparently because there were made requests for pictures of numbers and documentation. Then there is the heavily modified Süsser GTO replica - which seems to be ruled out. Then there is the group 4 car - that has been rebodied and restamped from S/N 194... /195... to S/N 20005. Lastly; My car is confirmed not a stolen car.

 

Then I’m sorry to say this, but you completly misread me.
I’m always willing to help – in so far as I am able to - regarding numbers, etc...with the proviso that, as I wrote, I’m certainly not an expert on carbed 308s ; « Triple Black » and « Robert Retzlaff », among others know much more than I do.

However, and I wrote this in a previous post on this thread (#29 or 43): I won’t speculate. I’m ready to consider facts, numbers and figures, but it stops here : nothing more.
I write it again, « I won’t speculate » about what could have happened. And what you have asked from me in your preceeding post is, I quote :

[ « I was looking over the posts in this thread this evening and I wanted to ask you what reflections you have concerning the Swiss document stating that my car first date of entry into circulation was 10.03.1978 - and in this case in Zürich. It was before that registered late October 1977.
I don't find it plausible that car could have been tampered with in that short period before that? Unless it was tampered with at the factory by the factory itself? Could this also explain the unwillingness from Ferrari SPAs side?
Another thing that came up is that in our search (official dealer in Scandinavia) in the Ferrari DB March 2022 - was this very surprising fact that there earlier hadn't been been made any inquiries about s/n 20005(!). » ]

How would have any idea about what could have happened in a country that I barely know, of which I have almost no knowledge of its registration system, and this 46 years ago ? Or when and how it could have been tampered, and by whom ? Or what is the limit between what is plausible, and what is not ? This would be pure speculation ; unless we have facts from new evidence, everything is possible and the sky is the limit ; sorry, but I don’t have access to that kind of crystal ball.

My only guess, and that is a guess, is the fact that the car has changed countries has helped to muddy its history somehow.

As for the « unwillingness from Ferrari SPAs side », I have no clue ; perhaps they are just wary of any legal action ; many companies are nowadays : the factory was giving many informations for free until 2007-2008, but it doesn’t anymore.

What I have suggested in one of my posts, and I am still of the same opinion, is that before entrusting them with the car and paying a lot of €, it would be a good idea to ask them what exactly they would be able to do ; otherwise, you risk paying 5 or 6.000 euros to have them tell you : « sorry, but we couldn’t say which car it is ».
But considering the matter with what we know now, they are the only ones able to have the final word.

And you misread me completly about the « ruined for good » : that was an answer to your statement that « there has never been any enquiry about s/n 20005 ». Please go to Alberto’s post #46 & 49 in this thread; Alberto, who knows what he is talking about, lives near the factory and know many persons here. In case of doubt on the identity of a car, the ONLY truth, should anyone want to sell it one day, is what the factory will say : if they say (in WRITING) the car is legit, then legit it is and will forever be ; if they won’t certify it, or won’t say what it actually is, it will seriously impair its value. Whether we like it or not, this is how it works.

We have seen a small number of cases like that on this forum, or elsewhere : I remember a guy with a white 308 GTS which had an even chassis number ; the theory is that road cars do not have even chassis number before #75000. He said « I was certified that my car is an exception » ; our answer was : « has it certified in WRITING by the factory, then » ; he never reverted (and his car had crossed borders, too...).
If there is some doubt, solving it needs the factory, but it is a double-edged sword: if they say it is a fake, or it has been tampered, that is final. So what I was trying to tell you is that most probably, the owners of the OTHER CARS (not you !) badged 20005 have never asked anything to the factory, because they fear the answer, that’s all. They won’t take the risk of receiving an official answer saying « sorry, but your car is not what it claims to be », they rather leave this in doubt. That explains why no-one have enquired about « 20005 » until you did.

(By the way, the factory has an official procedure for re-attaching the true chassis number to a car that has been stolen and has its number tampered, with a small plate affixed above the tampered one with rivets)

And you were right to ask Ferrari, but as far as it goes, I can’t help more : I’m short of facts or new evidence and refuse to speculate on what could have happened.

Only the factory could – perhaps ? – help, as Alberto wrote.

Rgds

 

My recent discoveries show that there are another build number at the armrest that is coherent with the rest of the parts. I also found that all of the door hinges were stamped B1?
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Regarding the chassis number looking different in that it might not be as deeply stamped or a different font, I see this often so I wouldn't hang everything on that. From the cars I've restored I've come to the conclusion that the 5 digit number is added at a different time than the rest of the numbers and letters. I see this on Boxers where the the vin plate is actually welded onto the existing chassis tube (which could easily be transferred to another car if one wanted), they look pre-stamped deeply like they made a bunch of them at once and the assigned vins were added after and not as deeply stamped. I have to be careful to not take material off that area to prevent the chassis number from vanishing but it's obvious to me they are not stamped the same.

 

Here's a 76, it needs some TLC you could say. This one has the stars but I have another 76 here that has no stars thats much earlier than the example and I dont recall but will check my 77, I dont remember seeing the stars. But you can see the font, size and depth is different than the other stamped numbers.

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This is very interesting and thanks for sharing. I have collected several VIN stamping images showing dents/denting from the striking the numbers. They differentiate from the stampings that are completely flat - due to the pre stamped plates that are welded into the tube(?).

I find it strange and it make me very suspicious that Ferrari Classiche are not able to find or give me another VIN number - if this exists - connected to build number 682.

 

I have found some Swiss documents confirming the last Swiss owner.

Plus - the first registration was not 30.10.1977 - but 01.10.1977
The first canton where the vehicle was registered, in this case Zurich - confirmed by the Federal Department of the Environment, Transport, Energy and Communications (DETEC).

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In the US welding in the section of tubing with the VIN is considered about the strongest evidence you can have of VIN tampering so I can't believe the factory would be doing that. In an investigation they x-ray and acid test the area looking specifically of evidence of welding in ot around the VIM location. I think Paul is just saying 1 team likely stamps the first part and the last part goes on further down the process but I can't imagine there is welding going on around the vin.

Or did you mean the whole big section of tubing during frame manufacture? That could be true and means that whole section could be cut out and a new piece welded in without it being detected I'd guess.

 

Paul is 100% correct. VINs stamped in frame are not complete until well into the build process. Frames for any model has different versions so to begin with it is stamped to identify what it is and later with specific information for the specific car.
Here is 2 pictures. One is a 328 chassis not yet assembled. The second is a 328 with a couple hundred miles on it taken during Classiche certification.
Point is the entire number is not stamped all at the same time probably by a different person and probably with a different set of stamps.
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Boxers have the welded on plate not 308's and that was just to say that the chassis number is added later with different stamps