SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP

The ID plates for Europe vary a lot from the North American versions.

There's a good example of a stamped "5" and perhaps yours was just traced with a scriber in an effort to enhance it.

Serious subterfuge usually will show at least the welding and grinding effort required to actually "restrike some numbers"..

A Vetro converted to steel!
In our modern market that's an expensive mistep.
But at the time the Vetro in USA was not very popular, unless they were in love with the shape and had to have the "first one on the block"..

 

Big Tex
Here in a pic of the stamping on my GTB ending in 5


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Big Tex Image Unavailable, Please Login
Sorry had trouble with pic download.

 

How does Blu Acapulco look?

 

Andreas,

I won't speculate; I don't have the facts, therefore anything I might say won't help. Except that OF COURSE nobody hadn't made an inquiry about #20005!
Knowing that this number is contested, asking the factory is a double-edged sword.
If you have a car numbered 20005 and are not sure...then you ask the factory, and the factory answers "this car is not #20005": it's official, then...and ruined for good. Better leave in doubt than be sure...
The french Cardinal de Retz (= one of the advisors of Cardinal Richelieu in the 17th century, called the "Grey Eminence") already said it very well:
"On ne sort de l'ambiguité qu'à son détriment" ("You never leave ambiguity without a penalty").

Rgds

Rgds

 

I think the point was this, you know for for something is not right with the numbers. Maybe something small, maybe something big, you don't know. So lets say you pay ferrari to tell you what chassis and engine serial numbers match your build number. You know for sure they are not going to say all is well and with 4 cars sporting the same chassis number at best you have a 1:4 change yours is the correct one....which means a 3:4 change it isn't.

If they look up the correct number and it isn't what's on you car then what? Almost certainly 3 of the 4 cars were stolen and renumbered, maybe all 4 as the original might have been wrecked which could be why they had the paperwork. Here in the US when a stolen car is found it is confiscated and returned to whoever owned it when it was stolen. If its an old crime there will be no charges but you will be without your car and the only way to be made whole is to sue whoever sold it to you, and they sue whoever they got it from and so on.

I just read a story last week about a '68(?) Camaro living a happy life that was seized and given to someone else after numbers matching a car stolen 20-30 years ago were found on it's firewall. This is basically where you are if the build numbers don't match the chassis number but r ight now you have a very nice car with proper paperwork...I'm not sure I would ever speak of it again knowing the most probably outcome. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

Then I’m sorry to say this, but you completly misread me.
I’m always willing to help – in so far as I am able to - regarding numbers, etc...with the proviso that, as I wrote, I’m certainly not an expert on carbed 308s ; « Triple Black » and « Robert Retzlaff », among others know much more than I do.

However, and I wrote this in a previous post on this thread (#29 or 43): I won’t speculate. I’m ready to consider facts, numbers and figures, but it stops here : nothing more.
I write it again, « I won’t speculate » about what could have happened. And what you have asked from me in your preceeding post is, I quote :

[ « I was looking over the posts in this thread this evening and I wanted to ask you what reflections you have concerning the Swiss document stating that my car first date of entry into circulation was 10.03.1978 - and in this case in Zürich. It was before that registered late October 1977.
I don't find it plausible that car could have been tampered with in that short period before that? Unless it was tampered with at the factory by the factory itself? Could this also explain the unwillingness from Ferrari SPAs side?
Another thing that came up is that in our search (official dealer in Scandinavia) in the Ferrari DB March 2022 - was this very surprising fact that there earlier hadn't been been made any inquiries about s/n 20005(!). » ]

How would have any idea about what could have happened in a country that I barely know, of which I have almost no knowledge of its registration system, and this 46 years ago ? Or when and how it could have been tampered, and by whom ? Or what is the limit between what is plausible, and what is not ? This would be pure speculation ; unless we have facts from new evidence, everything is possible and the sky is the limit ; sorry, but I don’t have access to that kind of crystal ball.

My only guess, and that is a guess, is the fact that the car has changed countries has helped to muddy its history somehow.

As for the « unwillingness from Ferrari SPAs side », I have no clue ; perhaps they are just wary of any legal action ; many companies are nowadays : the factory was giving many informations for free until 2007-2008, but it doesn’t anymore.

What I have suggested in one of my posts, and I am still of the same opinion, is that before entrusting them with the car and paying a lot of €, it would be a good idea to ask them what exactly they would be able to do ; otherwise, you risk paying 5 or 6.000 euros to have them tell you : « sorry, but we couldn’t say which car it is ».
But considering the matter with what we know now, they are the only ones able to have the final word.

And you misread me completly about the « ruined for good » : that was an answer to your statement that « there has never been any enquiry about s/n 20005 ». Please go to Alberto’s post #46 & 49 in this thread; Alberto, who knows what he is talking about, lives near the factory and know many persons here. In case of doubt on the identity of a car, the ONLY truth, should anyone want to sell it one day, is what the factory will say : if they say (in WRITING) the car is legit, then legit it is and will forever be ; if they won’t certify it, or won’t say what it actually is, it will seriously impair its value. Whether we like it or not, this is how it works.

We have seen a small number of cases like that on this forum, or elsewhere : I remember a guy with a white 308 GTS which had an even chassis number ; the theory is that road cars do not have even chassis number before #75000. He said « I was certified that my car is an exception » ; our answer was : « has it certified in WRITING by the factory, then » ; he never reverted (and his car had crossed borders, too...).
If there is some doubt, solving it needs the factory, but it is a double-edged sword: if they say it is a fake, or it has been tampered, that is final. So what I was trying to tell you is that most probably, the owners of the OTHER CARS (not you !) badged 20005 have never asked anything to the factory, because they fear the answer, that’s all. They won’t take the risk of receiving an official answer saying « sorry, but your car is not what it claims to be », they rather leave this in doubt. That explains why no-one have enquired about « 20005 » until you did.

(By the way, the factory has an official procedure for re-attaching the true chassis number to a car that has been stolen and has its number tampered, with a small plate affixed above the tampered one with rivets)

And you were right to ask Ferrari, but as far as it goes, I can’t help more : I’m short of facts or new evidence and refuse to speculate on what could have happened.

Only the factory could – perhaps ? – help, as Alberto wrote.

Rgds

 

Regarding the chassis number looking different in that it might not be as deeply stamped or a different font, I see this often so I wouldn't hang everything on that. From the cars I've restored I've come to the conclusion that the 5 digit number is added at a different time than the rest of the numbers and letters. I see this on Boxers where the the vin plate is actually welded onto the existing chassis tube (which could easily be transferred to another car if one wanted), they look pre-stamped deeply like they made a bunch of them at once and the assigned vins were added after and not as deeply stamped. I have to be careful to not take material off that area to prevent the chassis number from vanishing but it's obvious to me they are not stamped the same.

 

Here's a 76, it needs some TLC you could say. This one has the stars but I have another 76 here that has no stars thats much earlier than the example and I dont recall but will check my 77, I dont remember seeing the stars. But you can see the font, size and depth is different than the other stamped numbers.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

In the US welding in the section of tubing with the VIN is considered about the strongest evidence you can have of VIN tampering so I can't believe the factory would be doing that. In an investigation they x-ray and acid test the area looking specifically of evidence of welding in ot around the VIM location. I think Paul is just saying 1 team likely stamps the first part and the last part goes on further down the process but I can't imagine there is welding going on around the vin.

Or did you mean the whole big section of tubing during frame manufacture? That could be true and means that whole section could be cut out and a new piece welded in without it being detected I'd guess.

 

Paul is 100% correct. VINs stamped in frame are not complete until well into the build process. Frames for any model has different versions so to begin with it is stamped to identify what it is and later with specific information for the specific car.
Here is 2 pictures. One is a 328 chassis not yet assembled. The second is a 328 with a couple hundred miles on it taken during Classiche certification.
Point is the entire number is not stamped all at the same time probably by a different person and probably with a different set of stamps.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Boxers have the welded on plate not 308's and that was just to say that the chassis number is added later with different stamps