F12 or 812?

I maintain that two inches in overall length or an inch in width don't make any difference. Ten inches do make a difference. By the way, a new 911 is 5.07 inches shorter than an F12.

I wouldn't call Jaguars and Land Rovers as poor driving machines. Jaguars drive better than their German competitors (except Porsches) and Land Rovers are peerless off road. I get what you are saying though, but in this case it is more about a certain "Britishness" that appeals to Americans, rather than beauty.

 

An x7 is a better driver dynamically than the Range.

A 3 series’s bests a jag all day.

 

I love (hate) the concept of 'investment grade' cars. Over the last 40 years, very few cars have beaten even the most basic stock market tracker for returns. All you had to do was put your money in the tracker, not get lucky with your choice of stock. Try that with cars. Buy them cos you like em and drive em. If you want to make money, go elsewhere...

 

I was about to post the same but was trying to avoid starting new arguments. But yeah, given the NASDAC has had a 1000% return over the past 20ish years it’s hard to figure out what car anyone considers a good investment…

 

Beg to differ, sir, at least about the 3 Series. I concur that the X7 is more dynamic on the tarmacadam than a full size Range Rover, but then again the Rangie would wipe the quarry's bottom with an X7, when they got to those quarry dirt roads (or no roads at all, for that matter).

Regarding the BMW 3 Series, as a long time owner of those, they drive well, but both the Alfa Giulia and the Jaguar XE offer a more vivacious driving experience.

 

Understood and agreed.
However It is my enthusiasm in the car to push the 812.
I did say the F12 is fantastic as well of course.
Admittedly I inserted the word “settle” as I figured to get some push back on that
My apologies.
No one would ever be settling for an f12.
It’s epic. But I stand by my opinion and respect yours. We are both happy and blessed.

My dealer also wanted to inventory my 812 as they didn’t have any.
Cheers


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I owned a 2018 812 red/black & sold it after a brief period. I kept comparing it to my 2019 turbo S I tried launch control once & the wheel hop was unsettling & felt like I would break something if tried again. the other thing I felt was the power level exceeded the suspension limits. Those were the cons the positives was the excitement of driving it, that fabulous 12 cly. engine and its raw power. I'm thinking F12 next. Less power & maybe more balanced. I would not discourage anyone to buy the 812 but you better be a damn good driver to be able to tame the beast.

.

 

The F12 is lot less controllable and has a ton of power also. The 812 is a much easier and sterile drive by comparison.

 

At road speeds I would suggest both F12 and 812 are absolutely fine. I don’t get this fascination with on the limit handling. These aren’t race cars. They are GTs and in that department they are both awesome.

The good news - they are both brilliant! So buy whichever makes you feel most excited at the thought of driving it.

 

Don’t think ‘sterile’ is a good word for either of these. The 812 puts its power down much better. It feels like you have a fighting chance of driving the car quickly and not ending up in the undergrowth. F12 is harder to drive at that speed and for me, less enjoyable.

 

Ran across this thread . So what did you do the 812 or F12?? And do you like it….
For what its worth my vote would have been the F12 I have had two of them and just like the looks better than the 812…

 

when the new F167 replacement comes out and it is a stunner of a vehicle the 812 will undoubtedly drop in price quite a lot. everyone will want the new new. since the 812 is no longer the latest it has to test itself against the remaining pack and the F12 is the clear winner overall. the F12 will rise in price and the 812 will fall till they reach equalibrium. the only thing the 812 had over the F12 was being the last NA V12 and when the F167 drops it won't be anymore. without that distinction the 812 will lose value big time because in all honesty it isn't a pretty design.

 

Sorry, but you are writing nonsense.

Daniel

 

Except the last part about the lackluster design. In the past there was data to support the price decline theory. But this is a new odd world where even ugly ducklings are overpriced.

 

it's an opinion but i watched the 458 outprice 488 recently. the main difference is the turbo vs NA 458 so i swapped in design aesthetics instead since neither the 812 nor the F12 will be the last NA V12.

i couldn't use the 599 to F12 because the difference between the 2 cars is much too large mechanically and performance wise. the differences between the F12 and 812 are very small but if you've read these forums you would know visually much greater.

it won't happen overnight but i would say within a few years they will be very close in price.

i'd like to add that while i joke a lot about the ungainly design of the 812 it really is in good fun. i think the 812 is prettier than all the older front engine corvettes and most aston martins. if i was given 1 i wouldn't refuse it lol. it's just that if i was given the choice of an 812 or an F12 i would choose the F12 and put the money difference in the bank.

 

In my opinion, nearly every Ferrari (except limited models) has a similar price trend.

list price
surging prices over list because of the higher demand over the production numbers
stabilizing
prices going down (new model in sight, ...)
after some years surging prices again


The last years the speed and the term of the price trends changed, also the amount of the prices changes are different.
Talking for the V12s,
the 550 and the 575 came down to 20-25% of list price
the 599 GTB came down to 30-35% of list price
the F12 came down to 45-50% of list price
and so will the 812 come down (i think not lower than 60 % of list price)

I'm talking for European market.
I own a 550 since 2010, had a 599 from 2015 - 2021 at once, sold it and looked for an F12 but ended adding a new 812 SF in 2021.
So i observed the market for these 4 models the last 15 years.

So saying a Ferrari drop in price quite a lot is nonsense in my eyes.

Daniel

 

Confirm
Since a least covid pandemie, the world changed a lot.
Material things like high priced cars, gold, watches, houses rised in demand and prices and past price cycles and trends are not longer valid.

Daniel

P.S.
And i love my 812


Daniel

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how is 60% of list price not a lot of drop?

 

Perhaps i wrote it wrong or misunderstanding
I meant that the 812 will hold 60% of it's list price.

So it will loose max 40% which is much less than a normal price drop at cars and it's much less also than the price drops, Ferraris had in the past, like 550, 575, 599.
The F12 was much more solid than the predecessors, and i think, the 812 will loose less than the F12.

Also the terms of the price curve is much shorter than in the past.

550/575 were at the bottom about 10-12 years after production start.
599 were at the bottom about 8 years after production start.
F12, i think you know, less than 8 years.

It's a crazy time, crazy car prices started about 2015 with the Baillon auction, since there, many changes in the car market, compared to past times.

We will see.
Perhaps everything changes, when the EU get enforced their electric car crap and fuel prices start to raise.

So let's enjoy all our beautiful cars, some more nice some less nice (in the eye of the beholder)


Daniel

 

Me thinks this didn’t happen



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Way too early to call it.
None of them were particularly adored looks wise esp the 812, but relative to the Cindi…?!

 

Way way too early..

 

it's too early. the 12 cilindri isn't what was expected so we will have to see how it plays out. for me i like it better than the 812 but still prefer the F12 over all of them. however the F12 doesn't have a spyder variant but it was also produced way less around 5k units to the 812 8k units.

 

The 812 will stay as an evolution of the F12, and as such will probably maintain some price premium over the F12. Just like the F8 will keep a price premium over the 488, both situations are very similar.
The 812 brings some additional power and, more crucially, the rear wheel steering; regarding the design, neither F12 nor 812 is particularly breathtaking.