812 Replacement Rumors

Absolutely gorgeous interior. Is this Terra Brusciata? I have that color in my 812 GTS and this looks similar.

 

Ferrari smartphone company tries to erase the pininfarina connection with the beautiful f12 by using manzoni. How low these smartphone executives can get?

 

Admittedly those proposals don’t put Pininfarina's talents (at that time) in the best light but also admittedly, the final product from that project, the LaFerrari, with its ‘Tensostruttura’ philosophy—basically influenced by structural tents!!—and reliance on 2-dimensional graphical elements was rather clunky and anything but organic.

The Monzas, on the other hand, are very nice.

Among other things, the surfacing on some areas of the 812 (the doors especially) is just awful. There are plenty of tools in computer-aided design to assess the continuity of surfaces and how these will reflect light but on the 812 this was obviously missed. Or, more likely, sacrificed at the altar of the philosophy of graphical elements—the arrangement of lines that resulted in some tortured surfaces.

 

From the official Ferrari video (in period) it can be noted that the front evolved after a near-final clay model. Was this the as-received design from Pininfarina, or a further evolution at Ferrari Design? Neverthheless, the Pininfarina script was prominently highlighted. Note also the taillight design was slightly tweaked.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

my turn to add some drops of oil on the fire Manzoni just did an interviewfor Car and Driver magazine.


What was your first big design task for Ferrari?

The F12berlinetta was the first project that I was able to develop from scratch. Before that, when I joined Ferrari in 2010, there weren't any real design facilities, so I had to create everything. After I was hired, the first model was done in a warehouse. It was very difficult to do all the measuring and create the necessary symmetry. Also, I wanted to use clay at a time when every other design center used mainly chalk or wood. I don't know why. So, when I first joined, everything was pioneering.

The guy claimed he did it from the scratch , and he seems to rate him self very highly . I'll let anyone understand it as they want.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60098138/flavio-manzoni-ferrari-designer-interview/

 

812 Replacement Rumor: Who REALLY designed the F12? lol

 

It is Cuoio Toscano.

Marcel Massini

 

And yet no one is debating who designed the 812!

 

It’s quite an interesting article. You can see the influence behind his thinking. I don’t believe he is being untruthful about F12. Can’t see why he would. It’s a 12 year old car and he simply answers the question. In fchat minds “how dare he claim credit for our beloved F12” in his mind “F-what? Oh that thing I did years ago. Now let’s talk about the 296…”

It’s so clear to me. New team always starts with the leader, then a few others. The main design is settled by them. The secondary design work (how the under-the-skin design work fits in with the engineering) - the real heavy work - requires lots of experienced and talented people and needs the support of the outgoing house.

As an aside and someone alluded to this earlier, I don’t think Manzoni gets enough credit for the job he has had to do. He had to start an equivalent to Pininfarina from scratch, while at the same time designing some of the most important cars in the world. That is some feat. Very impressive IMO.

Does this have any relevance to the F167? Yes, I think it does. All design starts with a philosophy, the interpretation of themes and ideas into a complex problem, resolved for simplicity, as Manzoni suggested in the article.

What strikes me as interesting is that, according to Day355, there is less complexity with the F167 - a very familiar n/a V12 with possibly a limited amount of new technology. Therefore, the basic starting point is already familiar. As Manzoni said, he started in 2010, working on the F12. This will be his third iteration. If you look at the values he talks about in the article - complexity simplified, or something like that - then Day355’s long assertion of a simpler, more classic form makes some sense.

The 296 has a clear link to the past without copying it. I think it is a very successful design. It seems that F167 will be very strongly influenced by the 365 Daytona but without copying it. My guess is it will be a simple, beautiful, resolved design. Much like the original Daytona. The art of that car was in retaining classic proportions and language but modernising the theme (the previous cars were 250 and 275). The design had a simplicity about it without being boring. With F167 I think we’ll get interesting, original but historic, flow, strong stance and just enough aggression. Not too much longer to wait now.

 

No need to think about it any longer - it’s sold out anyhow!
It also remembers me to the discussions Porsche launch the Cayenne, Lambo the Urus.
Dealer says the are many regions where conditions are rough which hinders enthusiasts to drive a Ferrari. Here comes the PS. Everyone wants it.

 

Exactly… no extra people stepping out and claiming they designed that..

 

I found this, really interesting! There was a big connection with the 599

About the 812.. well, it was impossible start from the F12 and make something better than the F12. In fact, I prefer the F12 compared with the TDF but there is no comparison with the Superfast and Competizione. The Competizione is back with an organic and very fluid design. The Superfast was fragmented and very "rigid"
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Militello made the car from A to Y starting at Pininfarina, and Manzoni put the letter Z with the headlights and slightly the front. I would like to see him tell Militello eye to eye that he has done the whole thing.F 12 !!!

 

Say what you want, but this guy is a “drawing machine“... amazing skills. It´s very hard to reach such a level of sketching:

 

Didn’t think there was any doubt who designed the 812, unless you’re going to say there is?! Manzoni already claimed it for Ferrari Design.

 

I can hardly wait for the 167 reveal. Then we can have arguments about THAT design! LOL


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Regardless of its design and its features, the Ferrari F167, even if it does not have the word Berlinetta on the name as does the F12, will always be a Berlinetta.
There is a famous quote that says “You can't really know where you're going until you know where you have been” and this applies in full to this family of sports cars whose history began in 1952 with the creation of the first Pinin Farina Berlinetta.

The French magazine Automobiles Classiques in its issue 221 of October 2012 published a very comprehensive article about the F12 Berlinetta. In addition to this article, was also published another very complete and very well written one. The title is “The Invention of the Berlinetta”. This magazine number is part of my archives and below are the scans of the 6 pages of the article. As it is written in French, in case there is anyone really interested in reading it, I’ve translated it into English and you will find the texts below.


PS- After reading “The Invention of the Berlinetta” the first thing I checked was the author or authors names. The only thing it says is “Text and illustrations Files Grand Tourisme”. Even if Marcel Massini hasn’t contributed to this article no doubt is the person among us with the level of knowledge and expertise to confirm or not all the information that is given.





The invention of the Berlinetta


Named "berlinetta", the new Ferrari F12 alludes to the partnership forged with Pinin Farina sixty years ago. Sergio Pinin Farina, who passed away last June, was the architect of this partnership".


The story goes that Battista Farina entrusted his son Sergio with the task of forging a lasting alliance with Ferrari. The year was 1952. Italian coachbuilding was at a turning point: it had to move from the artisanal stage to a more industrial level to keep up. In that same year, the Ferrari brand was only five years old. To dress up its racing cars, as for its first road models, it fluttered from one partner to another.


After the 125 S, 159 S and 166 Inter spyder corsa, improvised in-house or subcontracted to Ansaloni, an obscure Modena craftsman, Enzo Ferrari called on stylist Ermelle Bruno and carrosier Allemano for his 166 Sport, but it was above all Touring that gave the first Ferraris a strong identity. At the 1948 Turin Motor Show, the firm exhibited two cars dressed by this coachbuilder: a new 166 Sport coupé and the 166 Milemiglia sports car. The latter allowed Carrozzeria Touring and its stylist Frederico Formenti to showcase their talent. The 166 Inter chassis, the first touring car produced in small series by Ferrari from 1949 onwards, was also entrusted almost exclusively to Touring, which built 21 of the 38 cars. The situation changes with the 195 Inter model, which takes over from the 166 Inter in January 1951. Vignale and Ghia shared the lion's share, eclipsing Touring. Soon, Vignale was also producing competition machines: 212 Export and 225 S.


On the touring side, the 212 Inter succeeded the 195 Inter in October 1951. Vignale continued to build thirty-six out of eighty-two cars, but a new name appeared in June 1952: PininFarina . On June 23, Georges Fillupinetti, Minister of the Swiss Confederation, took delivery of the 212 Inter nº 0177/E entrusted to Pinin Farina. It's a burgundy-painted cabriolet, with natural Havana leather upholstery. Austere styling by Adriano Rabbane but this model is historic in that it's Pinin Farina's first design for Ferrari. And while Vignale, Touring Ghia and others designed their bodies individually, Sergio Pinin Farina negotiated with Ferrari the beginnings of standardization.


After building a second convertible for Roberto Rossellini, much like the first, Pinin Farina produced his first coupé in December 1952. Fifteen more in the same vein followed. In October 1952, alongside this small series, Pinin Farina prepared a much sportier model for the French driver "Pagnibon" (alias Pierre Boncompagni) to race in the 1951 Tour de France. Based on a 342 America chassis (no. 0236/MM), this berlinetta's styling foreshadowed that of the 250 MM chassis, with the same taut beltline, panoramic rear window and prominent, squared-off oval grille. The 342 America marks the birth of a prodigious line of front-engined cars, culminating in the celebrated 250 GTO.


Pinin Farina may not have invented the Berlinetta, but the word berlinetta seems to have originated on the other side of the Alps in the early 1930s. Carrozzeria Touring used the term to designate several bodies that could be likened to two-door sedans, with four windows and four seats. At the same time, Touring also attributed this name to a model with only two seats and two windows. The definition remained unclear. In fact, Touring continued to use both the coupé and berlinetta names for similar designs.


The berlinetta was not recognized by the Académie Française, so we'll venture to define the diminutive "berline" in this way: after the Second World War, the berlinetta had a decidedly sporty tone, with only two seats and a "hatchback" profile. At Pinin Farina, it was Ferrari's collaboration that gave this type of car its letters of nobility, although the coachbuilder graced several other manufacturers with comparable bodies. Of the thirty-two units of the 250 MM that Ferrari intended for gentleman drivers, eighteen were treated as berlinettes by Pinin Farina - including one, no. 0356 MM, on a short 166 MM/53 chassis.


This design appeared officially at the 1953 Geneva Motor Show, and was immediately assigned to two 250 MMs (nos. 0254/MM and 0270 MM), which took part in the Mille Miglia as part of the first edition of the Constructors' World Championship.

A similar design (on a 250 M chassis instead of two very special berlinettes concocted by Pinin Farina): no. 0456/AM, exhibited at the 1954 Paris Motor Show and destined for actress Ingrid Bergmann, and no. 0490/AM, exhibited at the 1955 Turin Motor Show. On the same theme, but with far less success, Pinin Farina builds three sedans on a ridiculously short 2.25 m wheelbase: two 500 Mondials (nos. 0422 and 0452/MD) and a 166 MM/53 (no. 0356/MM). Aldo Bravarone, Pinin Farina's head of styling, continues to use the fabulous design as a basis for reflection.


A capital model left the workshops in May 1955, based on the new 250 Europa GT chassis with a 2.60 m wheelbase (no. 0369/GT), in the spirit of the 375 MM berlinetta, but with a much refined nose. Three other models (nos. 0383, 0385 and 0415/GT), virtually identical to the first, were built at Pinin Farina during the second half of 1955. The coachbuilder Scaglitti then took over. The cars were soon named "Tour de France", after the event in which they scored numerous successes. The first was in 1956, in the hands of driver Alfonso de Portago.


This race also marked a turning point in the history of motor sport, as the regulations introduced the notion of grand touring for the first time, which was to change the face of this competition. Scaglietti built several series of berlinettes on the 2.60 m chassis (seventy-seven examples in all) before receiving the first short chassis (2.40 m) introduced in October 1959.


With the legendary 250 GT "passo corto", the berlinetta entered the legend once and for all. But we must never forget that this great story began in 1952 with the creation of the first Pinin Farina berlinetta.











Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Misunderstood my post, not a fan of the awkward design of 812, as you know from my previous posts, my point was that Manzoni changes the front lights on a Pininfarina design and tries to claim F12 was his.. contrary, nobody is going to try and steal his 812 design, he owns that awkward design..

 

Well, most of the great designers for cars, engines, fashion, ... are italians.
So it must be the italian blood which is responsible for their talent to design and construct things.

Pininfarina, Bertone, Gandini, Zagato, Fioravanti, Scaglione, Giugiaro, Touring (Anderloni), Frua, Scaglietti, ...
Colombo, Lampredi, Jano, Bizzarini, Chiti, Puliga, Busso, Maserati, Alfieri, Stanzani, Abarth, Rivolta, ...
Armani, Versace, Missoni, Gucci, Mara, Prada, ...


Daniel

 

Notice for the Competizione they fixed all the awkward errors of the 812 SF.

 

I actually hope F167 has a slightly softer look - more flowing (ala Roma) but still purposeful & not endless vents & gills... love my 812 GTS as I love my 458 Spider but for very different reasons - they are simply a reflection of a specific point in time - look, aural delight, blend of analogue/digital instruments... if you like them - you hold them - don't like them - move them on. I will be intrigued as much by the interior of the new car as the exterior - if we are heading for haptic heaven & a full tilt digital overload I for one will pass, seek my dealer deposit back & just be at peace with the GTS which, for me at least, is a fine blend of technology, beauty & purposefulness; it'll take some beating as a fun, long journey motor...

 

I understood. Just being dry. I have come to the conclusion that it is unlikely Manzoni merely added the lights. Do I know for sure? No. But looking at the logical sequence of events plus his own comments, my personal belief is that his involvement was material. Others will differ. Regarding the 812, I’m in the camp that prefers it to the F12, whoever is responsible.

 

Are dealers starting to take deposits?

 

I loved the Roma when I first saw it but I really fell in love with it when I saw FM do his sketch of it in the video after launch. I 100% agree, the man is an incredible sketcher.

I love my F12 but didn't really follow Ferrari as religiously back in those days. It has PF blazoned all over it which strikes me as odd if FM designed it from scratch but either way, it is much nicer to my eye than the 812 which is why I bought it last summer instead of an 812. Either way, I do think FM has talent and hope he does F167 justice.

 

Word I got was they’re holding tight until the reveal day. But if I like it, be ready to get the check to them to book a spot.

I hope to, because I love the V12 line, but if the rumors are true it’s going to be $600k+ then it would be tenuous.