Ferrari 412 /CIS Injection Experts Opinion Needed - Low Power/Weak | FerrariChat

Ferrari 412 /CIS Injection Experts Opinion Needed - Low Power/Weak

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 360modena2003, Mar 31, 2024.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435

    Hello,

    after replacing the timing chain, rebuilding the metering heads, new pumps and injectors, I have realized that my issue is related to air/fuel delivery.

    When I accelerate by pushing the accelerator all the way, the car has barely any power to move forward and also in neutral the engine does not rev up quickly as it should.

    I have already tested fuel flow and pressure and the injectors by pulling the metering plate up, and the flow is the specified amount (160ccm2 per min/per injector at WOT) - this rules out fuel pump, filter, lines and the metering head/distributor.

    For some reason it seems that the engine is not pulling enough vacuum to pull up the metering plate up, which causes (a) less fuel and (b) less air to enter the intake manifold.

    I have already checked for vacuum leaks - and don't seem to have any. When I will fully turn the air adjustment screws in, the engines goes down to 300 rpm and then eventually shuts down.

    What else could the problem, perhaps too much pressure at the plunger coming from the WUR?

    When running the pump continuously and pulling it up by hand, it does not seem to be too "hard".

    Any ideas or further diagnostics are welcome.
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,549
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    You should certainly measure the cold and warm control pressures to make sure that they are in spec. Mechanical drag in the Plunger and/or Plunger mechanics could cause a similar symptom -- does the airflow flap (and Plunger) move very easily (and return to the rest position) when there is no fuel pressure at all?
     
  3. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,129
    As soon as you mentioned timing chain I am concerned about camshaft timing. What is your engine vacuum at idle? Low vacuum equals low airflow which equals low movement of the plunger which may act like a fuel issue.
    Outside of that as mentioned above you should recheck ignition timing and advance. Then monitor your supply fuel pressure and the control fuel pressure and ensure they are in specifications.
     
    2NA likes this.
  4. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Hello, I have double checked the timing and have degreed the cams.

    Where/how should I measure vacuum at idle?
     
  5. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,278
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    You could use the port of the air-bypass that is just the closest port to the metering plate. All the other ports are somehow afected by the air bypass.

    You shoul check the bypass properly closes as it is meant to create a "vacuum leak" when descelerating. Also the vacuum amplifier (the disc) if the auto transmission could play havoc with vacuum.

    There are however some variation between 400 and 412, I do not remember wheter it's the high idle or the bypass that are different.
     
  6. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Hello,

    it is now confirmed, the control pressure is way TOO high, the sensor plate is very hard to move (impossible for the engine vacuum to lift it).

    When I disconnect the top fitting on the metering head, then the sensor plate moves freely, which clearly indicates a control pressure issue.

    My question now is, where should I start to look on why my control pressure is to high?

    I have already check the fuel return line, and it is free - I can blow through it.

    Next up is the WUR - I have already removed both and disassembled one, but do not see any obvious signs.

    Where should I continue?

    Thanks
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    36,770
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    In my experience the warm up regulator is the most problematic part in a CIS system. When I saw the distributors had been done I guess I just assumed the regulators had too. I have sent regulators by themselves often but never a distributor without the regulator. Id send them off to CIS Flowtech in Alabama. I have been very pleased with his work.
    And if he is not the one who rebuilt the distributors I'd send them too.
     
    2NA and 360modena2003 like this.
  8. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Thanks - seems that all this time it was the regulator that was giving me a hard time...I did learn how to degree a camshaft thanks to you and my failed diagnosis :)
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,549
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Why don't you measure the control pressure and the regulated fuel supply pressure when the fuel pump is running? The control pressure is a fairly significant pressure so the sensor plate should be fairly hard to move when the control pressure is applied versus having no control pressure present at all. (But having good, smooth, easy sensor plate motion when the control pressure is zero is a good thing.)

    Also your comment about being able to blow thru the return line seems odd. The return line from the WUR back to the tank passes thru a valve in the fuel pressure regulator section (that should be closed when the fuel pump is not running -- this keeps the residual fuel pressure at about the 3 bar of the Accumulator at engine shut off). Are you blowing into the fuel return line leaving the WUR or the fuel return line leaving the fuel pressure regulator section?
     
  10. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    If I understood correctly, the control pressure when warm should be around 3 Bar, it is definitely much more than that.

    I will measure and post.

    The line through which I can blow through is the pipe at the fire wall that connects to the metering head
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,549
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    That's always best.

    If you mean hose #33 here = that's good and normal:

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/Diagram/Ferrari/412/011-Fuel-Injection-System-Fuel-Distributors--Lines
     
  12. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
  13. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,549
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, the larger port connects to the control pressure volume of the system.

    No, but there is a disc valve between the large port and the small port that continually "leaks" fuel back to the tank via the hose on the small port. This is how the pressure in the control pressure volume is set to be below the regulated supply pressure. When the disc valve in the WUR is more closed (cold or more intake vacuum) = less fuel leaks back to the tank = the control pressure is higher = the plunger deflects less = slits more closed for the same intake airflow = more lean, and, likewise, when the disc valve is more open (warm or less intake vacuum) = more fuel leaks back to the tank = the control pressure is lower = the plunger deflects more = slits more open for the same intake airflow = more rich. I don't have any 412 documentation, but there is a good figure of the style of WUR used on your 412 on page D13 of the Mondial8/QV WSM 281/83 (and although your 412 has an updraft airflow metering unit, the Mondial8/QV WSM 281/83 information would still be a good reference for how your K-Jet without Lambda system works IMO):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/z99soo68ny9n2qa/Mondial8qv_workshop_281-83.pdf?dl=0
     
  15. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Thank you Steve.

    I have already removed the disc you mention, both orifices are now visible, but there seems to be some type of restriction in the inlet port.

    How is this piece held in place in the body of the WUR - can it be removed?


    See the disc here...

    [​IMG]
     
  16. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    I also noticed that the o-ring upon which the metal diaphragm sits has become "flat" - this could also contribute to the disc opening less and thus less fuel "leaking" out = higher control pressure.
     
  17. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,278
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    High control pressure, means the Wur is clogged: normaly the wur does let escape some system pressure (control pressure = system pressure - whatever the wur leaks out).

    I would suspsect the mesh screenS (there are3?) were clogged. I did clean mines with a few drops of MEK (o-rings removed!).

    As steve said, testing pressure is straightforward: just install a K-JET gauge between the distributor and the WUR. If you close the valve of the gauge, no gazoline can reach the wur, si no pressure leak, so what you see inbthe gauge is system pressure, then open the valve and check the control pressure.

    When I service the WUR I Just try to avoid messing with the bottom part that contains the WOT enrichment mechanism. That's a part that does not see gazoline, and the membrane is hard to source.

    As for the o-ring of the disk, I did replace it with a green one (from an AC shop), works quite well. These are supposed to contain viton and fluorine so can handle agressive gazoline blends.
     
  18. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Great, thank you. What is MEK?

    Do you happen to remember the size of the o-ring - I suspect the flat o-ring is not allowing fuel to leak past the disc as well, as the disc becomes more "straight" and less flexing occurs = less fuel = higher control pressure.
     
  19. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Crazy to think I adjusted the camshaft timing 3 times thinking the timing was the problem...and it was the WUR all this time...!!
     
  20. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,278
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Changing the or-ring slightly modify pressure, but not on the scale you describe. The disc is countering quite a few forces while regulating the pressure: the pressure of the o-ring, the pressure of the bi-metal strip (cold start adjustment with a heating element), the pressure of the "sombrero hat" that is adjusted by vacuum, and the fuel pressure itself. The later being the most important part.

    No clear idea for the o-ring size: I had an assortment of green air-conditioning o-rings from Summit Racing. This was a kit meant for Air-conditioning fittings. The full set was a few bucks, one size was a perfect fit.
     
  21. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    I have determined the issue that caused it all, the fine mesh filter in the inlet port was blocked.

    I removed it and blasted high pressure solvant both ways and it is now free.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    36,770
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Very common.

    On CIS a pressure test should always be first diagnostic step if fuel system is suspect.

    Also correct calibration of regulator is essential especially on cars with 2 systems.
     
  23. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
  24. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,278
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Except that this is the opposite of what you got...

    Weak o-ring reduces the control pressure, i.e makes it easier for the distributor disk to move. In your case your disk was stuck due to excess of control pressure. (The control pressure is what allows the distributor disk to hold against the airflow).

    A thicker o-ring does let escape more gazoline through the WUR, but this is no big deal as this can easily be compensated with the CO screw or you can knock the wur barrel that is pressed fit in the wur case. (The big barrel with the two inlet and outlet ports) (small barrel only allows to tweak cold pressure)
     

Share This Page