812 Replacement Rumors

Everything is a copy. Originality is hard to find. Look at music? What hasn't been done? The most famous film scores mimic works created long ago.

 

True. And if it is too original or unique or disconnected, it will likely not be well received…


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I don't see it as an automobile, but an extravagant and futuristic design exercise. I don't think it's beautiful or ugly.
However, even within all the extravagance of this concept, it has cohesion and coherence, and elements that consist of ideas that can be used in production cars.
The Enigma has a delta that does not affect the fluidity of the design and does not invade other angles of the car. This delta is visible only from the angles at which it should be seen, is in a body cavity, and forms a spoiler in the final portion. I thought it was very well thought out.
The canopy is also very cool, and the glass even reminds me of the official sketch of the 296 GTB.

 

Both (12C/Enigma) are repulsively ugly. Which only punctuates lunacy of Manzoni design team's plagiaristic effort.

 

I'm not sure I buy the plagiarism narrative. The timing is questionable, and the similarities aren't that pronounced.

Nor would I call the 12C ugly. Even if I'm not a fan of some of the details, the basic shape is quite classic.

The Enigma, on the other hand...

 

Agreed, the timing is definitely questionable, especially when you look back at how long the 12 Cilindri design has been in the works. Well said.

 

The Lamborghini Asterion in the first picture was presented at the Paris motor show in 2014 but never went into production. It was shelved in favor of the Urus.
The taillight bars used in the Asterion were something avant-garde and both they and their insertion in the body have similarities with what we see now in the 12 C . Although the Asterion has a rear V10 unlike what happens with the 12C that has a trunk, what catches my attention about the rear of this Lamborghini is the simplicity of Filippo Perini's design and details when compared to what Flavio Manzoni normally comes-up with.




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The Asterion rear is simply beautiful
The 13C rear is simply convoluted


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I've been wondering why @day355 claimed 12 Cilindri to have 33 mm shorter wheelbase than in 812 SF. Eventually it turned out to be only 20 mm shorter.

However, the inch taller rear tyres are taking half an inch more from the cabin space (25.4 mm / 2 = 12.7 mm).

Coincidentally the reduced wheelbase and larger rear tyres together reduce the cabin space by 33 mm (theoretically, precisely 32.7 mm). Due to long V12 engine, the front wheels are so far ahead that tyre size increase there doesn't affect to cabin space.

So was this 33 mm wheelbase reduction actually the cabin space reduction?

 

A lot of rationalization on here, which is not unexpected and fine. I get it: so many secondary gains and so much time, emotion and $$$$ to $$$$$$$$$$$ invested by many.

The fact that we now have a campaign to explain why it is a great design and why we need to think it’s beautiful confirms the design is a failure.

The ‘ol “are you going to believe me your own lying eyes……….” thing.

Not the ugliest Ferrari in the current lineup, but nevertheless it’s just not a good looking car.

I don’t think it’s FUGLY, but it does look stupid as sheet. Cubists and JDM enthusiasts love all those stupid looking bits on it. Instead of shields maybe $5000 Japanese letters on the side would be more appropriate (missing those vortex generators on the roof though)

But it will be a financial success, not due to inherent beauty but because of secondary gain. Fortunately, for Ferrari, money can’t buy good taste.




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Ppl tag Day355 a lot.

 

I agree, it’s very easy to see that 12C is fully influenced by the 365 Daytona design. In the same way you can see the 296 is influenced by the 250 LM but even more so. What is the point in trying to deny that?

 

I had originally been in the camp of thinking the 12C is a decent design but not really loving it. But the more people try to persuade against the 12C, the more I see the sense of Manzoni’s thinking and the confirmation that it takes a lot of skill to be a designer, not time on a computer keyboard tapping out vapid comments. There is a lot that works really well on the 12C and these two pictures show why, though neither picture shows the best angle for either car.

It has to be remembered that the Lamborghini is a design idea and not a production car. I can see why it didn’t get produced. It is comparatively unimaginative. It has clean lines but not very inspiring. In fact, very un-Lamborghini. From left to right, every line rises then falls in the same way and the edges are not very crisp. Of course it is from 2014 so perhaps a little unfair to compare against more modern designs. The car they eventually did produce - the Urus - I have also included the rear view, where you can see that there is much more going on, much more Lambo-like. Angular, not classically-styled in the commonly accepted way, aggressive, not pretending it’s something it isn’t and making little attempt to hide its mass. It’s been a successful design, no argument.

The 12C on the other hand is sharp, has a clear identity and feels very modern from this angle - despite the fact it’s clearly influenced by the 365 Daytona. The two ‘D’ lines emphasise the wide, low, mass at the extremities of the car for strength/stance plus enhancing the exhaust aperture speaks of power. But where the Lambo concept doesn’t go any further, with the 12C, line ‘A’ is a counterpoint to the D lines, emphasising flow and beauty. Like the Lambo, line ‘C’ falls away at the edges, complementing line D and again speaking of stance and handling, but in the case of the 12C, it is juxtaposed with line ‘B’, which creates an interesting scalloped effect to house the light arrays. So much more interesting and all thge more impressive because it is actually a production design rather than a concept study.

 

It’s interesting that so many on these threads seem to be convinced that the Daytona some how inspired the 12C but if you listen to the video interview with the lead exterior designer of the car - there is another perspective.

 

I don’t think the Daytona inspired the design necessarily but there is definitely some homage taking place. Perhaps inspired in the same sense that the Daytona marked a clearly new design language from previous designs.


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I mean, deliberate or not, it's very hard to look at the 12C and not see the Daytona design cues. The plexi-nose homage is the most obvious. But there are also a lot of parallels in the overall shape of the car.

 

There is a messaging conflict between Andrea's statements, and Manzoni and Marc Poulain who was at Ferrari prior to Alpine (other threads here reference this). Manzoni himself in an interview stated they looked back at the GT cars of the 50s and 60s for inspiration for the 12 Cilindri, but also wanted to modernize the design language. Quote from Auto & Design interview from Manzoni "Manzoni continues. Two elements above all define the front end: the black fascia containing the LED headlights, inspired by the legendary Daytona, and the bonnet: “The latter in particular has allowed us to have a unique cleanliness of lines, but it was a big battle for the style centre with the engineers because it is heavier and more difficult to make than a traditional bonnet." It would be nice if the design team had a cohesive message

 

The design team can’t have a cohesive message when the design itself isn’t cohesive.


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I think the message is very clear. It gets some inspiration from Daytona but then again, it is completely new and fresh design. It is not a Daytona II.

Different Ferrari designers may present this message in different words.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Nice video in the daylight:

 

The great admiration you have for Flavio Manzoni is noticeable because, like him, you can do something that most of us are incapable of doing, which is evaluating the design of a car through words and lines. For me, a well-designed or poorly designed Ferrari is never what Flavio Manzoni said or will say because, for him, all the Ferraris " he" designed are masterpieces. My only barometer of design quality are my eyes, nothing else, and that's why I really want to see the 12 C in person, even though my expectations are quite low.

Just a brief comment, if one of the arguments you used to devalue the Asterion's design is that it is very un-Lamborghini, even though we know that it was inspired by the classic Gran Turismos but completely innovative for Lamborghini in 2014, then what can we say about the entire half rear part of the 12 C, it's certainly very un-Ferrari.



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Exactly! Sounds to me they are having internal clashing of ideas! Which is why the result is even more polarizing than usual.

 

Lambo looks better imo!

 

Did you just draw a uterus on the back of the 12C?