What Happened with Dino Values!!!

Yes Tony, I agree, like so often with countless other threads, we have veered off from “values”, but my initial replies were attempts to offer a different viewpoint or an opinion how I feel these “value” assessments should be looked at.

As for creating “replicas” or other custom-built one-off vehicles, I have friends who do, have done or attempted to do some and I have helped several with designing/engineering/fabricating solutions, so I too have some idea what is required and can raise my hat to anyone who’s been successful in finishing theirs, but I also know and been involved with restoration projects that make most replica builds or even Alberto’s Dino project look like a child’s play.

Besides, and not to diminish their efforts in general, but 99+% of replica builds are far more compromised than most people realize.
Only time I could(?) be truly impressed with any kind of “replica” is if it was true to period construction details/methods/technology/etc in every aspect of the genuine item it’s imitating. No compromises or excuses, but those are as rare as unicorns.

Cheers !

 

TonyL said: ↑

I do believe that the turn to the current restoration climate is only a natural part of the discussion of Dino values, or the value of any 50+ year old car. While in theory all of them were created equal(ish) in their construction, the decades that have come and gone in between have left us with cars that range from one rainstorm away from being a pile of rust that can be swept into the rubish bin to the most insalely over restored cars imaginable. Condition matters when discussing the value of a vintage automobile, whether that means how much it will cost to bring a car up to scratch or what it did cost to get it there. Obviously, the other factors such as pecking order of individual variants, options and colors have been extensively discussed. I think discussion of the current restoration climate is useful, as even a seasoned enthusiast who has summited restoration mountain multiple times would be in for a rude awakening if they were to endeavour to start a restortation today if they hadn't done one in a few years.

 

I agree and assume (Yeah, I know) anyone who’s been involved with a “complete/full restoration” of any 50+ y.o. vintage car of substance know it requires several thousand hours of labor (+ materials, etc) to do one.

Unless the subject as simple as a Model T Ford or a ‘50s/‘60s VW bug, anytime I hear/read a comment of something like “over one (or two) thousand hours was spent on its restoration”, I can’t help but wonder what didn’t get done or which procedures/steps were cut short.

For more realistic and/or substantial hourly claims, I would expect them to be backed with full documentation detailed in invoice descriptions accompanied by thousands of before/during/after detail photos.
But that’s just me (and how I’ve done for decades in all my in-house projects, although my pre-digital photo-documentation wasn’t anywhere near as prolific as it became with it).

 

EDIT for the post #628:

I agree and assume (Yeah, I know) anyone who’s been involved with a “complete/full restoration” of any 50+ y.o. vintage car of substance know it requires several thousand hours of labor (+ materials, etc) to do one.

Unless the subject is as simple as a Model T Ford or a ‘50s/‘60s VW bug, anytime I hear/read a comments of something like “over one (or two) thousand hours was spent on this cars restoration”, I can’t help but wonder what didn’t get done or which procedures/steps were cut short or ignored.

For more realistic and/or substantial hourly claims, I would expect them to be backed with full documentation detailed in invoice descriptions accompanied by thousands of before/during/after detail photos.
But that’s just me and how I’ve done for decades in all my in-house projects, although my pre-digital photo-documentation wasn’t anywhere near as prolific as it became with it.

And if no comprehensive photo documentation/proof is made available, I generally assume much or some of the claimed work can be or likely is just BS.
My latest complete restoration was documented with +/-15000 photos, although much of those were just for my personal detail references.

 

As with everything Timo accuracy is everything. Given the right money and access to a V12 Colombo engine that replica could be made 100% even down to a ally body. These replicas are hand built even the curved windscreen and headlamp covers the old way. I dread to think the thousands of hours spent just researching and finding parts, let alone fitting them.

Keep up the good work and keep to your standards, anything less and you are cheating yourself.

Best
tony

PS one of those replicas was sold as wall art recently, it took some engineering to enable the car to be hung 15ft up a wall!!

 

Its probably more useful to recognize if a car is used regularily than one thats sat in a garage for 10 years in pristine condition.

 

not 100% but for the Dino's i have worked on the welding doesnt look like Oxy/DA going by the weld splatter!!

Wouldnt welding up a dino [or any other come to that] chassis with oxy/da cause to much heat distortion?

 

Any welding will cause heat distortion, which can be minimized by experienced & proper techniques, including temperature, size & type of filler material (in case of oxyacetylene or TIG, the rod. Wire for MIG) etc.

As I mentioned, the Daytona base chassis/frames I’ve repaired (during restorations) have appeared welded with mostly oxyacetylene, but all other structural supports leading from them have been done MIG.

The larger coach work/sheet metal panels (front & rear clips) obviously are a quilt work sections welded with oxyacetylene.
Daytona door & roof “skins” are single, continuous panels, but rest have oxyacetylene welding seams and since Dinos were constructed same time by Scaglietti, I assumed (I know, I know) same methods/techniques would’ve been used in them.

OTOH, since I don’t have any formal welding education, my experience or observations may not be sufficient to qualify as conclusive evidence on the subject.
Perhaps that big Dino book included thorough research and has the answers ?

 

Besides, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if many or most of the older, i.e. ‘40s/‘50s/‘60s Ferrari chassis (by Gilco ?) were welded together using oxyacetylene.
And now I wonder if any documentation in a form of engineering instructions/specifications or period detail photographs exist for this subject.

P.S. I apologize for veering further off topic of “values” and will stop now.

 

disagree to a point, the topic is "What Happened with Dino Values" and as a resource should be kept as that.

Open another topic labelled "Restoration of Dinos" and it would be an invaluable resource for future Dino owners if knowledge is shared, if its to promote a business then I think the mods will pull it............just my opinion disagree if you want!

Best
tony

 

I agree that discussions going into detail about all facets of restoration techniques, rescources, costs, etc. are better served by threads specifically dedicated to them. However, the understanding of ever increasing restoraton cost and industry developments are important to accurately access the "value" of any specific vintage automobile. The current crop of buyers have been gaining a fair bit of first hand experience in this aspect of the classic car hobby. While the current delta in transaction price between a #1 condition car and a #4 is growing to reflect this, that disparity is still not quite as much as it should be.

 

Personally I would like to see a complete thread on restoration techniques and methods but alas that knowledge is hard to find and once mastered difficult to share. Corbani's Corner comes close to it, if only it could be expanded, I am sure he would have liked it to continue, it was a no nonsense no BS approach to Dino ownership.

 

trying to have a discussion re restoration costs are fruitless unless those costs are published whether it be a professional restoration shop or a shade tree mechanic learning as he goes.

 

Restoring a Dino, is a basket of surprises. Some are trash (and, I know). Some you may get lucky.

What is the resto. rate? well that is what it will cost and more, as surprises appear.
No 2 ways about it.

I bought 2 Dino, for the simple reason, they were inexpensive, and I could restore them at home.
Paying $850 for Glasurit paint, and of course at 3rd world rates, and mind you, my guys are the
top pay guys in the field back home. This all the same below the USA border, all the way to 'Tierra del Fuego'

Best of luck, on the next ones...

 

Very easy to accomplish if one really wants to know.

Just buy a few (or more ?) completely/fully restored cars with full documentation, including invoices and publish them here …

… and/or …

… contract a few complete/full restorations with various shops or mechanics of your choice and when all done, publish the results here.

And if you sell the cars afterwards, you can publish their purchase and selling prices to show the reality of “values” (assuming of course you’re going to be fully transparent about the financial transactions).

In meantime, I won’t be holding my breath.

 

It's a bit quiet on this thread, market fatigue?

 

Market fatigue? More like market overdose....

Regards, Alberto

PS. On the same subject, I asked a 'specialist' engine builder, the cost of
building up an engine for me (NOS) with all the components in his hands,
and received a very satisfactory response, $150/hr. +/- unforeseen issues.
Potentially, around $15K. Very clear and concise.

 

I take it the subject is not a vintage Ferrari V12 or something similar.

 

No, but it is a precious and extremely rare Alfa engine, a narrow head GTAm.

 

Thought so.

In my experience, +/-$15K (i.e. 100+ hours) & up + parts is basic ‘50s/‘60s vintage American V8 rebuild money and kind of like with lower than realistic costs/hours of car restoration, whenever I hear/read someone claiming having had theirs rebuilt for much less, I can’t help but wonder what parts weren’t replaced or which procedures weren’t done, either at all or correctly.

 

I'm guessing the seller (or non seller) was more than a little disappointed with this result.

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Non factory color, no documentation by either Marcel or Matthias(why?). It looked to me like the last genuine bidder stopped at $302k.

 

No books, no tools, no compression, no service records, no Massini/Bartz, precious few photos. Not even trying.

 

I am going to be honest, the market is soft but this should’ve sold for far more. If it is available at the top and, no reserve price, I would buy it today

 

The seller replied to 5-6 questions, with great nonchalance, and Tom Yang is his hero.
Mine too, but I fail to see the connection.

This Dino, or any other, I think you require just a touch of 'theatre staging'.

...was a sleeping sell, or 'how not to sell a Dino'... Best of luck, next time, if there is.

Shawn offer him 400. He'll sell, maybe.

Corbani is back on BaT, new and improved...but for 12 days. Toooooooooooooo Loooooooooong.

Regards, Alberto