LaFerrari replacement: v12, no hybrid, less power than SF90stradale?

The Valkyrie is amazing. It looks great, the packaging is mindblowing and the aero is mad. But it’s also a good example for what happens, if you don‘t make any (or the right) compromises: A car that is barley usable. I‘ve never heard a comment that says the Valkyrie is fun to drive. It‘s more experiment than product.
Ferraris take on this concept was the F50 (30 years ago, 1995): n/a v12 with F1 roots, directly mounted to the carbon monocoque. All the drama, but usable.

 

Ferrari can make anything, everything sells, hence the phrase often heard "capitalize on the badge" !

 

Of course capitalise on the badge, you’re dead otherwise. If you don’t you devalue it. But that means adding value to the customer to make larger margins. Customers don’t have to buy anything. If they decide to buy something they don’t want, it’s still their choice and they do it because of something else they really really do want. Customers only part with money if they see value in doing so. It is an immutable rule. Using the brand to add value and maximise margin is what every good brand has to do. The key to it is to add enough value to the customer to justify the price - in the end, over the long term, you cannot get away from the need to add value to the customer to earn his business. You can’t cheat it.

The brand is part of that, of course. My belief is that if they did what all the so-called purists want, they would diminish the brand value and make the business smaller and more vulnerable. Others may disagree but I think I can make a good case for it. There are just not enough people who want a 1.2t, V12, manual, mid-engined, stripped out car. There are lots of people who want a front-engined V12, super-GT. There are lots of people who want an entry-level, front-engined (therefore having easy-to-use packaging), powerful V8 coupe and convertible. And to build that car gives a more accessible way in for new customers, some of whom will go on to buy 12c’s, 296’s, SF90’s, maybe then buy a challenge car, an XX car. The starting point - today the Roma - does an important job for the brand. There are also enough people who want to go racing with Ferrari, there are many people who want to collect important Ferraris, there are many people who enjoy using Ferraris on road trips with friends - today’s Ferrari caters well for all of them.

And the person who started this idea of applying the Ferrari magic to a wider audience instead of selling more of the same? Enzo of course. We are still seeing a 2020’s expression of what Enzo started 70 years ago. Probably with bigger success than his wildest dreams. And would he have been proud of the products? I think he would. They are rarely weaker than their competitors. The ‘puristi’ always moan about cars not being like they used to be, or not what they want. But that was not what Enzo ever did. He built the 250 California, the 250 SWB, the 250 GTO and the 250 GTE. He also looked at a four door. It never got built but the fact he looked at the idea suggests he would have done if the product/market was there. Today’s strategy of building one fewer than demand and growing the customer base by building products that suit a wider base of customers is simply an excellent extension of what Enzo started. It seems ironic that Enzo’s name is used to denigrate the products spawned by this strategy when it was him who started it! The thing that would have rankled would be if the company built a product that was weak in its category. They simply don’t anymore. I know there was some criticism of LDM earlier in one of the threads but one thing he understood very well - if Ferrari decide to enter a market segment, they had better do it brilliantly. He changed that and it was the best thing he did.

The thing that really kills Ferrari and works against this brand-led strategy is for cars to get into the hands of flippers. I feel they do a pretty good job of fighting that, better than Porsche for example. The F250 is a case in point with a lot of care being taken to make sure cars end up in the right hands. That’s because the current management still value the badge and understand what destroys it. The brand is everything in the car business, for any manufacturer. It’s what has happened in the past that speaks of what a customer should expect in the present, and it points to what you can expect for the future.

In the case of Ferrari, this is being managed well. The customer journey today might start with a Roma or a used F8. And what are you getting? In both cases a car that is very usable on the road, has incredible speed and a good packaging/handling compromise, some learning from past racing but a car that looks and feels like a Ferrari should. We’ve had both and both are excellent cars. The Roma is every bit a Ferrari and a brilliant car in its own right. An ideal entry point - very different to Porsche with its Macan or Boxster. The F8 will be a used product, still benefitting from the remainder of the 7 year plan and sold with good customer service, through a dedicated and knowledgeable network (at least in my experience).

The journey continues right up and through the major products into an opportunity to get into racing. And the racing programme is the best designed of all of the brands who do it. The best hospitality, the best events, done with excellence. Ferrari are a racing team and to include this element in their customer journey shows brand integrity. To do it better than anyone else, shows proper understanding of what it really means to capitalise on the brand.

Every brand has to grow to remain healthy. In Ferrari’s case, they have chosen not to grow by trying to sell more of the same thing. Instead they have chosen to grow by applying the Ferrari ‘magic’ to a wider group of customers, without losing their integrity. I believe they have done this well. If not perfectly, at least as well as any competitor. They just are not GMA and nor could/should they be. Let GMA do GMA. Or Koenigsegg, or Pagani, or the many other small brands trying to get into that space.

And is there any other evidence that Ferrari’s ‘growth by widening the brand’ idea has worked well for them? Thought you’d never ask. Gentlemen, I give you Lotus.

In the 1970’s, Lotus were a successful Formula 1 team, with a clear brand philosophy - make it fast, then add lightness - (very similar to what we regularly hear on this forum as it happens). They had a charismatic founder, a world-famous and key product (the Esprit), even James Bond drove one! In those days, Ferrari was not much stronger than Lotus and they were very similar brands. Maybe like Ferrari v McLaren of recent years. And we know what happened. After enduring the low-quality 70’s, like Ferrari, they came out the other side. And just tried to sell more of the same thing. When that didn’t work they built a purist product - the Elise. And built many versions of the same thing to try and sell more of the same thing to more people. Again, it just didn’t work for them and they ended up being owned by the Chinese. Who did what? Yep, built a 2+ tonne EV SUV. How’s that for going fast then adding lightness. I hope Geely do well with Lotus and they could. But don’t tell me this is better than today’s Ferrari with Vigna, Apple, and all the rest.

 

The new Ferrari 12Cilindri features several key changes to its 6.5-liter V12 engine compared to the 812 Superfast:

1. Increased power output: The engine now produces 819 horsepower at 9,250 rpm, matching the output of the 812 Competizione[2][3].

2. Higher redline: The engine can now rev up to 9,500 rpm[3].

3. Improved internals: The engine uses lightened internal components and clever intake manifolds from the 812 Competizione[2].

4. New torque management: A system called "Aspirated Torque Shaping" uses electronics to modify the torque curve in third and fourth gears[3].

5. Enhanced drivability: The engine has been tuned for quicker responses and improved drivability[5].

6. Reduced friction: The engine features reduced-friction low-mass valvetrain and rotating assemblies[5].

7. Variable-geometry intake ducts: These help optimize airflow into the engine[5].

These changes result in 80% of the maximum torque being available from just 2,500 rpm, improving low-end and mid-range performance[5].

Sources
[1] 2025 Ferrari 12Cilindri First Look: A Glorious V-12 Wrapped in a Car https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-ferrari-12cilindri-first-look-review/
[2] New Ferrari 12 Cilindri revealed: is it the last front-engined V12 ... https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/7627/new-ferrari-12-cilindri-revealed
[3] The New Ferrari 12Cilindri Makes 830 HP the Old-Fashioned Way https://www.motor1.com/news/718292/ferrari-12cilindri-supercar-horsepower/
[4] Ferrari 12Cilindri - Ferrari.com https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/ferrari-12cilindri
[5] Ferrari 12Cilindri Has a Sinuous Shape and a Powerful 819-HP V-12 https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60647515/2025-ferrari-12cilindri-revealed/



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Called marketing lol Those places just read the sales brochure. Its basically the the Comp V12 and some tuning to suit the setup of the C12. nothing major or special. The C12 is actual in part a facelift model as it shares a lot with the 812.

 

Agreed, compared to the 812SF/812GTS the 12c engine is improved. However, the 12c engine was first released in the 812C in 2021...

So, now I think you should compare the 812C engine to that of the 12c
Try to find ANY notable difference and let us know because best I can tell they are identical.
Best I can tell there are no such differences.
Reason, it's simple (to me): As of 2022 Ferrari no longer has a V12 development team; Why? 1 month after the SP3 was revealed the V12 team leader was publicly fired and replaced with an accountant....

 

??

 

Not a production car nor is it made by Porsche.

 

This is by Tuthill.


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GMA sold out their run of T50's in 48 hours

I'd bet every penny I owned Ferrari would be able to sell out a 1,000 edition run of 1200kg v12 manual stripped out cars!

 

Not at what it would cost them to build. They would need to design and engineer a manual, a V12 that will not be too heavy, the chassis and software to match, plus the car itself. Each car would be a minimum of £2m+. And they would probably need 2,000, even at that price, to make any money.

Say half the cost goes into the actual manufacture, 2,000 units leaves £1bn for design and development of a new gearbox, new engine, new monocoque, new chassis, new suppliers etc. Even 2,000 cars is not enough most likely. They might need 3-4,000 at £2m. Absolutely no chance people would go for that. They simply cannot do it like a GMA with low budget, low overhead.

They could try without low weight, then you could use the 6.5 litre engine. Still needs a new gearbox though. But to get the price down to, say £600k (I.e. SF90 loaded up), the volume needs to be the same as a mainstream car like the 12C (actually more to pay for the gearbox) and the manual gearbox plus stripped out interior would limit sales too much. And the end result would still be too heavy for those who want one. Plus the packaging issues of putting the 6.5 litre engine in the middle of the car. Plus the fact they already did it with the SP3, without manual gearbox, at a much higher price point. It all just leads nowhere.

 

only chance for manual is SP series ... maybe SP4 would be modern F40 with manual

 

1,280 KG
V12
Manual transmission
230 units
2-3M Euros

It seems possible.

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Ferrari would sell 1000 cars with a manual gearbox at $1m in 10 minutes. However it would not be able to build a new platform (engine, gearbox, chassis) for that…if they go above 1000 cars they need to drop the price quite a bit as owners no longer see them as collectible… I think this is only an option for an Icona car, eg doing something on an existing platform (F250?) with a manual gearbox and 200kg less weight, 600 pieces 2-3m…which means it could be a 700-800 hp turbo engined car as the F250 is not developed for a V12…that could be a modern F40


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Ferrari can develop what they want, it is neither a problem of cost nor of engineering. Their concern is rather to recycle what exists to further increase margins... No problem, the customer buys...
Currently, it's a choice of strategy, because everything goes to the e-factory
On the other hand, I'll be curious to see if with a Honda badge on the F250, everyone would be as excited about a V6 at this price...
Mercedes is already having such a hard time selling its thing...

 

Also, GMA’s T50 base price is ~3M. Do you still want to place that bet? If so, you should dedicate all of your time and start a company based on your strong conviction.

Also, with GMA, the “rumor” is that the following cars they will be making will be EV/hybrid.

 

Not a technical experts but would (and should) Ferrari not limit own development on what is really critical to the brand perception - in my view the combustion engine, independent on cylinders and turbos, the carbon fiber structure, the chassis setup and the magic to connect all car parts to ensure that Ferrari feeling, as well as the design - and outsource the other components like gearbox, e-motors, batteries, suspension technology, breaks etc - all very important but not core for Ferrari?

Personally, I am very excited from what I hear and read about the LaF successor and can not fully understand the concerns on number of cylinders, heritage slippage, comparison to other brands.

But then I am also more excited by Ferrari in racing, active in the Challenge and amazed by their two LeMans wins in a row and less concerned by future value appreciation, exclusivity, etc.

I believe it will finally boil down to how the car drives and feels on track and road in comparison to its competitors and I am confident it will be outstanding. Exciting times ahead!

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if the F250 also pushes an average price of 3.5M with options and have a build quantity of ~750-1,000 units. They’ll sell every one and so would a lightweight pure ICE manual if they offered that.

Keep in mind that GMA has to amortize an entire engine development in their price. Both it and the Utopia use an XTrac transmission. Why wouldn’t Ferrari simply commission a manual transmission design/manufacturing to them? Perhaps they could even design around the existing XTrac used in those cars?

 

I guess the question you have to ask is ‘If the board are so focused on money, and they could do what Pagani do and make a big profit, why don’t they’? We seem to be mixing our conclusions if we say all they care about is profit and therefore they won’t build a car that would be very profitable.

Let’s use another example, maybe it’s not a good one but hopefully it illustrates my point. Both Rolex and Richard Mille make super luxury watches, both super high margins and profitable. Both products tell the time through mechanical movement using luxury materials. A Richard Mille is very lightweight and overly complex. Could they make a Rolex? Could Rolex make a Richard Mille? Their products do exactly the same thing, they are in the same business so why don’t they try to take a slice of each others’ pie? I think the answer is obvious. Neither company is geared up to produce the other’s product. Nor would their respective customer bases respond well to them doing that. In the end it would just be futile for either company to try so why would they make the investment?

There are of course some differences with that analogy. Firstly, RMs are much more expensive than Rolex whereas the F250 will be roughly as expensive as a Pagani. However, the point it is really making is that Ferrari’s design and engineering skill is to make cars that are technologically advanced with aerodynamics, engine performance, chassis development and software derived from racing learnings. That’s what they do and where the cost/price comes from. The F250 will be much faster around a track than either the Utopia or the T50 and Ferrari’s skill in the 2020’s is to be able to do that. For that, they don’t need manual transmission and light weight, in fact they can’t achieve it with manual transmission and light weight. Rolex make a watch that can go to the bottom of the Mariana Trench - something like 11,000m - where the pressure is 8 tonnes per square inch or 1,100 times atmospheric pressure. They can do this maintaining a ‘high-performance’ level of accuracy of around 10s time deviation per month. But they have around 2,000 skilled staff to produce their watches. Richard Mille have no need to go to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. They use more exotic materials and are more interested in lightweight. And their accuracy is only around 30s per month. They have less than 100 employees. Neither is geared up to make each other’s watches despite them being in the same business of producing luxury watches. It is no different with Ferrari and Pagani. And ‘we’ already believe the Ferrari board are money hungry so if it was possible and profitable why wouldn’t they?

Ferrari produce a car like the F250 every 10-12 years. If they unveiled it and it was 650 hp with a manual V12 but 5s slower than the LaFerrari around Fiorano, that would be quite the disappointment for me. I think other people would do that better, GMA for a start. Ferrari should do for their best what they do best. F250 is going to be beyond fast, it will murder the LaF’s lap time and it will use aero, race tech, a modern and high power powertrain and superlative chassis dynamics to do it. And if it doesn’t do that, then I’m disappointed. In my (only relevant to me) opinion F250 needs to be the last word in ‘race car for the road’, mixing latest know-how in getting around a track with the ability to drive in stop-start traffic during the pouring rain or sit on a motorway for 5 hours (not that many ever will).

ps. I wasn’t sure about Utopia when it was launched but wow it’s grown on me. I think it looks sooooo good. I have a friend who has one on order and he saw it before launch and was in raptures about it. Despite me being unsure about it, I now think he was right.

 

It’s a fatuous argument to say put a Honda badge on and then ask ‘would it sell?’ As we discussed before, brand is synonymous with a company’s history. The things it has learned from what it has done and where it has been. Honda has not done what Ferrari has done, nor has it been where Ferrari has been. Put a Ferrari badge on even the best Honda and it is not a Ferrari. A Honda badge on the F250 would just be a lie and it would never happen so it is therefore only a hypothetical. It doesn’t mean that if hypothetically a Honda badge was on the front and nobody bought it, it proves the product is unworthy even if it retains the Ferrari badge. The badge on the front and the product sitting behind it are intrinsically linked, and that is not just marketing ‘fluff’.

 

Ferrari introduced the semi-automatic into F1 in 1989 and debuted it on a road car in the F355 in 1997. The trajectory since then was a gradual extinction of the manual gearbox up until 2012 when the manual Cali was finally axed. I don’t see Ferrari ever bringing a manual box back in any model. It would make no sense for them to change course. If you want a manual you’ll need to buy an older car, there’s no shortage of them but it’s a relic of history for a number of reasons. When high volume producers are routinely dropping manuals from their ranges you know the time is up.


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Ferrari could simply make just 100 units at 10 million each, and with my dream specifications of course: 5.5 liter NA V10 pumping out 900 HP, 1000 kg dry weight, central driving position, 2 tons of downforce. No manual, instead paddles on the steering wheel.

 

And what's stopping Ferrari from also tending to the purists's needs ?!?
How hard is it to make an extra adition to their range, a 1 ton, stripped out car, with a big displacement NA V10 or V12 ?!?

 

Totally agree.

200 kg less is not enough, considering that the F250 will most likely weigh around 1600 kg.
They need to shed at least 400 kg. Even at 1200 kg the car is 200 kg over the ideal weight of 1 ton.
And ditch that garbage puny turbocharged V6, put a proper engine in it, a NA V10 or V12.