Non-original engine disclosure

if you not ask the dealer before signing a contract if it is the original engine inside or not then it would your your fault. the dealer in my eyes has not to tell you. ( only my 2 cents )

but I think if you like to cancel the contract the dealer will agree. so I myself would not care about a non original engine, it only has to be an engine what has been inside an other boxer and those engines are only in the boxers

 

I agree with the dealer. Even if it was Classiche certified if it was a different engine of the correct type it would just result in a notation in the book.

In the modern era engine changes are not that unusual and since numbers are not matching few care.

 

Just my 2c. It wouldn't necessarily lower the value of the car or kill the deal – especially after a thorough PPI. But that's like finding out your new fiancé was previously married. There might be a story in there worth knowing. Why was it replaced? Was anything else damaged / replaced? Where was the engine sourced? Who did the work? How many miles on the new engine vs the whole car? Seems like a major event in the life of the car to omit.

 

Good day Bill,

If anything, a non original engine would put place a bit of downward pressure on the price as compared to a Boxer with its original engine (all original bits tends to be more desirable overall... and so can command a premium). That said, buy on condition... as to me having a top notch car with a non original engine would be far more desirable than an original engine car that was in a lesser condition.

On a side note, my Boxer's engine is also non original. I found out after my purchase, as no one really knew or cared. I did track down some answers and it appears if the engine suffered a sodium valve failure and Ferrari just sent the dealer a replacement engine. Interestingly, this same scenario happened to my 308 GT4 in 1977 when owned by its first owner. Ferrari sent the then local dealer a full replacement engine (including carbs, distributors, etc) who did the swap. When I bought the car in 1981, I also was given the original engine and a full run-down on what happened (sodium valve failure). Given my experiences, it is possible that this also happened to the car you are dealing on.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Sounds like he knew all along.....what else is being hidden.

In every collector circle I've been in, a non original engine is a value killer

 

My 2-cents: If it was done by the factory and is paper documented, I would think that it would not be an issue to most future buyers. If it was done by a shade-tree mechanic or damaged as the result of a wreck, then that would constitute a legitimate issue and a diminished value situation.

 

Good day Shark01,

According to one of Marcel Massini's past posts, a "vintage" ferrari's value can diminish by about 10% if the original engine is not with the car... but one has to consider that vintage Ferrari engine numbers tend to match the car's chassis number, whereas, newer Ferrari they do not. In fact, if the car's original warranty card was not with the car, how could one actually know what the original engine number was... unless other documents/post/info was found that included the engine number.

However, I agree that a car with a non original engine can be worth a bit less... but I would submit that many other factors should be considered in a car's valuation... but YMMV.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Good day Bill,

Sadly, "original" means different things to different people. Just like the term "restored". However, I agree that if the dealer knew the engine was not original, that it should have been fully disclosed regardless of whether they think it is important or not. My car was also presented as 100% original... when in fact, it also had the non original engine. I suppose one could argue that if the engine was replaced by Ferrari or its dealer, that the car could still be considered original by some.

Best of luck in your decision!

Cheers,

Sam

 

it is mis representation on a contractual basis and obligation to disclose pertinent information to the buyer. Moreover, it is morally and ethically wrong. not sure what country you are in, but i am sure most jurisdictions have a "cooling off period" !

 

Don't fall for the "gallery" BS. You already know what you have to do since you posted here. Follow your gut instinct - it's never wrong.

All of Europe = very fond of "long term relationships, family run business, etc" = gaslighting

If they were genuinely fond of all that they would have disclosed it.

(the gear knob is very original also )

 

"a beautifully unrestored condition."

Beautiful is subjective.
Original, restored, and unrestored are actionable.

 

Well, how many km on the chassis vs the engine? Matching numbers aside, if the car had significant km on it before a replacement factory fresh engine was installed, maybe that is of some benefit. If the engine was low mileage when it needed replacement and was replaced with a used higher mileage engine, I would be less enthusiastic.

 

Wouldn't trust a classic car dealer that didn't disclose the replacement engine to provide accurate info about that.
The excuse about it being a volume Ferrari etc is revealing. If it wasn't a "story", they would have disclosed it.

Unless it's a deal, negotiate an addtl discount for the engine or walk away.

 

Good day,

I disagree with your statement that "original, restored, and unrestored are actionable". Each description requires context and is therefore subjective. For example does "original" in your view include the same tires, fuel, oil, filters, etc as when the auto was made? Hmmm... I suspect that these items were replaced at some point and so clearly "original" can be interpreted differently depending upon context. As for "restored"... yet again...the term means different things to different people. If you believe I am wrong, please provide evidence that dictates the official and legal definitions of these terms. Adding to this issue is regional/cultural differences which can also create variances in these terms. Ultimately, it can become a bit of a legal mess to sort out especially if there were terms like, "sold as is", etc written into any purchase agreement or contract.

With all that said, a quality dealer would recognize that the perspective buyer was not fully informed of various details that the buyer considers important, and so the dealer should voluntarily cancel the purchase contract if the buyer so wishes. This would be the correct direction for those that are honest and have integrity.

As for your other comment of "Don't fall for the "gallery" BS"... you are out of line. No one is presenting "BS"... but merely providing comments on the issue and perhaps other items to consider. Clearly, you have your own opinion on this issue...and you refuse and/or take issue with any other comments that do not agree with your own... which you consider "BS".

Cheers,

Sam

 

so then I must say sam that no single Ferrari even it left the factory is original anymore after the first filling up with fuel.

so everybody understand under "original" something different - but how much means "original"?

with this I agree 100%, this also I have written already in my post no. 2 here

 

It hurts the value for sure. Two cars side by side same price and condition, one with the wrong engine, which one would any of us buy?

I prefer numbers matching anything, even motorcycles. If its eating at the OP's guts then back out of the deal or negotiate a price that makes you feel okay about the purchase. The seller said "original" which it is not.

 

100 % actionable.

Volume Ferrari blah blah explanation by the Gallery dealer is gaslighting = BS.

"legal mess" clarified by court ordered expert report. Only thing sliding by as subjective is beautiful.

Using semantics to deceive, obfuscate and bamboozle is just that - dishonest BS.

 

'100 % actionable." ... As I asked,,, please provide a legal definition of these terms for you to justify "actionable" . Clearly,you cannot and so legally it will be a crap shoot as a result.

As for responding to your other comments...what's the point, as clearly arrogance and attitude is a factor here.

 

Good day Romano,

Indeed, that was the point I was making... an original item has context and is subjective based upon the terms it is used. Clearly, in the auto industry it is "understood" that original would not necessarily extend to consumable items, but that is not the point I was making. Rather that "original" is not a definitive an absolute statement, nothing more. With regards to the car in question... the original engine is not in the car and so it would be really a stretch to justify it being original and so the dealer's representation is in error.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Try that in real life as a business and you'll find yourself in court pronto. In Europe. Particularly in some Euro countries
that extend guarantees for hidden defects years after the purchase.

With an expert report detailing exactly what your legal responsibility is with regard to every objective word you used to describe the vehicle.

Which is why any sensible pro knows to stay away from new, perfect, restored, unrestored, original, and similar, unless factual,
and stick to gorgeous, beautiful, incredible, as good as you can imagine, and similar fluff.

Repainting a car's bumper and deliberately describing the car as repainted, is misrepresentation.
So is describing the car as original when the original engine is gone.

As a professional, a classic car dealer is assumed to know both the actual condition of the car (including things he might not know, because it's his job to find out)
and the terms used in the industry. Unless the buyer is also a professional, in which case the same applies, he can walk.

 

I can't believe some of the comments in this thread. It's basic stuff. A non original engine should be disclosed by a dealer and does affect the value. A documented replacement new engine supplied by Ferrari under warranty within the warranty period would not bother me but an engine from a different used car would.

 

I am not disagreeing with you re: "So is describing the car as original when the original engine is gone."... you are 100% correct. Nor do I disagree with your other statement of "Which is why any sensible pro knows to stay away from new, perfect, restored, unrestored, original, and similar, unless factual,
and stick to gorgeous, beautiful, incredible, as good as you can imagine, and similar fluff."

My whole point is that one has to be cautious with these terms and recognize that they have context. This is why most iron clad legal contracts include a prefix/appendix which spells out certain descriptions, etc that could be "misinterpreted" by a neutral third party (e.g. Judge) that has no background in the terminology used in a contract. Anything that can be misinterpreted and/or ambiguous can result in a legal outcome that one does not expect. Legal results are never 100% guaranteed even with overwhelming evidence.

In this case, given what is presented, the dealer really should allow the cancellation of the contract and/or allow the buyer to renegotiate the price if the buyer so chooses. Plain and simple.