F355 Market

Stuart’s is in Plano and has been the shop for Ferrari and Porsche. Legendary. He has a shop neighbor and possible partner that deals heavily in Challenge cars. They know their stuff. Stuart Singer raced the series and I am positive he knows where a lot of cars are. And I am sure our Dallas economy and Ferrari community has more race car garages with Challenge cars - all versions - than we know.

I don’t think I am sharing info he would prefer not to, but I apologize to him if I did. I also am making a leap, but I am pretty certain that BaT comment is by the guy I have met next to Stuart’s with 3 challenge 355’s in the building ;-)

 

Isn't classiche on race cars meant to allow new equipment for safety so the car can be used on track? I'm pretty sure I saw that classiche on a race car means it has to still fit to rules but things like seats/belts and other safety equipment can be changed for in-date items so the car can be used.

Either way, data points from 4-15 years ago aren't relevant unless you compare to other cars sold at the same time, and not enough current sales to really establish a market, hence my comment that they're all outliers. The market has certainly changed over the last couple of years. Recent sales are all over the place. You certainly deal more closely with actual buyers, I'm more looking at macro Ferrari race car trends (if they can even be considered macro) and trying to see where the 355 challenges fit in. I think a road legal or title able car carries a decent premium, and a car with good race history also a decent premium. Originality to period race (and not necessarily as delivered) also a premium, but I think they go in that order.

 

The BaT car is road legal and race ready.



In regards to Classiche, from samples I’ve seen, you can Classiche many ways as long as you’re willing to write the program a check and your assembly numbers match .

I believe the euro challenge from the article is Classiche’d since the owner sent his seats to Classiche to get re-done, but I am not certain.



I also don’t get the impression buyers for these cars are looking to compete in them. Many see the road legal aspect as a plus and the cool and rare factor of being able to legally drive a challenge car on the street. Makes owners feel they are in a special road car. I’d feel the same.

Someone with means can easily buy a CS, Scud, Speciale, or Pista in 2 weeks if determined. Finding a nice, road-going, complete 355 challenge that is going to draw oohs and ahs at the local cars & coffee is going to take a lil more than just means. Rarity and presentability.

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Btw, Earle’s car has been pretty much restored back to it’s original race livery. Full paint back to Giallo with one OMP racing seat. It’s much nicer and more period correct than when Rob owned it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Earle’s car was one of the road registered cars Stuart’s neighbor was Classiche’ing. There’s only so many of them .


Ya’ll tell me what’s going on …



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S. Earle’s car earlier this year. Yes, back to yellow. Stripes can be further done to as-raced. SCCA roll cage need to be modified/replaced by Ch roll cage. Needs new doors or perhaps retrofitted with impact protection and window hardware etc. Engine bits seemed mostly there (side panels or two) as well as Challenge underbody panels. $3xxk.
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Stripes match wing’d period.


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FYI, not to derail the Challenge discussion, but today, John in VA assembled all 4 of our cars - 3 Foriano Package vehicles with Carbon seats and his Foriano Spider. Spectacular! I would say that is a special occasion for sure and highly unlikely to ever happen again. I should be there Tuesday to grab my two cars, as well as take some pictures. He has done some pics and video. Will try to post next week. The GTB is going straight to Dry Ice, then being collected and sent to Boardwalk for a major and some additional items. Once done, I will install my F50 steering wheel on the car, then the Original set of Challenge wheels I have for the Carbino GTS. Hope to have a December or January photo shoot with the Dr Evil Collection. Then the TDF will go up for sale in the early spring and Museum car, I think. I am only keeping two, and it should be the Carbino GTS and the Uno de Uno GTB

I need to clean house on 3-4 non Ferrari cars and then maybe this idiot buys a challenge car or a Foriano Spider. Definitely got the Ferrari financial noose around my neck. I have a bunch of parts to sell too, nothing like ShineKen, but a few good ones.

That is the state of my market

 

I need a good set of OE wheels. At least 8 out of 10 condition. Set aside a set for me for some trades .

 

I have 4 sets…, using two sets of NOS currently, other sets may be 7-8/10. I will find out when I move into my building and unpack. But you are tops on my list

 

Wrong thread

 

So, to review the market…. Cars sold new for $104-135k (roughly, due to dealers, market, etc. and more may have been paid?) 2005-2011, cars were as low as $35k, if not lower!?!?. 2015, back to $50-65k. 2018 starting to see $80-100k. 2021 120k and then $300k by 2022 - all high water and we all know deals can be made, but OPTIONS and MILES MATTER!

Now a softening has occurred, almost like the DOW or NASDAQ at times in their continued rise… that may be too broad, maybe pick a well respected equity, I am going to say TSLA ….ok, RACE . But anyway, you get my point; the values may drop $30k…. But that is consolidation, larger cash and market dynamics…. But asset value will rise as the dollar weakens. Maybe inflationary in nature. I am no economist, but I feel like I know cars a little bit and maybe not enough as others, but I have been on this board for over 20 years and this ID for nearly 15 I think , so I feel very confident in my 355 market understanding. It is the car I lusted for in 1995. It is the car in 2010 I should have borrowed every penny I could to buy then. Now 14 years later I own 4 and building a shop to put them in. I bough them to love, to learn, to drive and to invest for a return - someday. RACE would have been smarter, but dollar bills on a computer screen ARE NOT A$$ in a carbon Ferrari seat! There are people still having that lust I did in 1995, 2010 and even now. I want the values to always go up and I hope we all do too! Someone is sitting in front of a computer now, saying “damn, they touched and may trade at $300+, they are a bargain at $180-225 right now, but they are going to $500k someday, whether by market dynamics or inflationary dollars. Is that 5 years, 10, 20? And how many years of A$$ in seat time is left for each of us? How many $$ on the digital screen must you have before they don’t really matter when you can only stare at them ? Most of us on here have made the leap and own cars. Some on here don’t own them and may not pull the trigger - woulda, shoulda, coulda!

That is this idiots market analysis.

Side note: I just paid up - slightly - for a 27k mile S2000. They made 110k of those (roughly) during their production run. They are not going down in value and low mileage, original, non-modified cars will touch $100k at some point. 5 digit odometer cars are already touching $60k and more. CR cars are over 100k (Challenge like - but not raced) So I bought one as I consider this point in time to the same way I saw the 355 . And what a great car!

Side note, to side note: my opinion on this screen is not solicited I know. I share this info with a lot of random people that we may never meet (thankfully, I have met a few of you) and it may not come across the way intended. We all have lives outside of this digital world, but Ferrari, the 355 and our mutual love of the marque bring us here to share and discuss. My experience is not everyone’s and I tend to go way too hard. Who buys in bulk when it comes to these cars (?), and that may not sit well with some. When I posted my 5800 mile car with a crazy COVID price tag, I got many side notes telling me to stop, I am rubbing people the wrong way. “Why would you post that?” Etc. I was definitely trying to set a high water mark for the lowest mile car available for sale, Gated and original. It is a bargain today and that $499k ask may be a bargain in the future? Who knows. If you do, please continue to share here, on this forum, this thread and with all of us who participate . Cheers!

 

This is all true, but in addition to the broader car market trends, it's also impossible to ignore the effect of the large number of Euro 355s now available in the US market.

A few years ago, there were very few manual Berlinettas, and even fewer manual GTSs, on the market. Lots of people were chasing the same cars. Now, with these cars legal to import, there are simply more cars available and this naturally softened pricing a bit. It doesn't reflect badly on the desirability of the model, it's just that supply and demand are more in balance.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/seats-52/

 

There was a time when I enjoyed my 355's just for being really cool cars, and great drivers. They were fun, able to be serviced, and worst case scenario able to be replaced. Life was good. I drove them regularly.

Today at their present valuation, and higher service costs (with the lower availability of service technicians and parts if they can be found) driving these cars is more of a risk. Other cars have evolved to be serious competitive drivers.

So, I only get in my car about once a month these days. Usually to drive to the next town up where I can park and see my car while I eat dinner outside.

I have gotten older. I have changed. The market has certainly changed. But the car is still the same car I fell in love with so long ago.

Kinda sad. I picked up a 1997 Alf GTV Spider a couple of years ago. Its worth nothing. I drive the snot out of it, and it makes me happy every time I walk up to it. Getting in and out of the car isnt as easy as it used to be, but I am usually smiling while doing the necessary gymnastics.

 

If value means you can't enjoy it, sell it. It's not worth taking up garage space if you don't drive it.

 

Different strokes for different folks but I drive my 355 almost every day (I work from home and have other cars). Gym, grocery store, errands, etc. It's just a car. I say that as an obsessed enthusiast and to say life is short. Enjoy these things that bring so much joy when driving. If I ever get to a point where I am only comfortable driving a car once a month, I will sell it. I don't understand the ownership experience at that point, unless saving it for your kid or their kid. This is not in any way to throw shade at you or anyone else. Just a little encouragement to those that are maybe a bit timid to drive these with the increased values of late.

 

For what it’s worth I know of two different mostly original/correct 355 challenge cars that sold in Europe for over $300k each in the last 12 months and another for $250k that was missing a fair amount from being converted back to street use for a brief period. That car is going to Ferrari for restoration and who knows what that’ll cost.

In full disclosure I have a number of challenge cars in my collection so I’m biased towards them but I have spoken with a number of guys who are expanding their collections from standard street cars into the challenge versions, particularly earlier or well known livery cars. There’s a lot of guys who have all of the CS, Scud, Pista, etc variants and are buying the challenge versions as an extension of that. Relative to normal street cars or even “limited production” special variants the challenge cars are variable hens teeth. Going to collections and used (hopefully) in club or vintage racing is the future for all of these cars. Prices will continue to reflect that.

 

Reinforces my view that "Classiche" is douchey and lame.

 

Sort of like the new Certificate of Authenticity program with Porsche, where the COA tells you that your 1972 911 has an engine displacement of 2.4 liters. Thanks a lot Porsche, that's quality information! (every 1972 911 was a 2.4)

 

COA was replaced with a Porsche Production Specifications (PPS) because people were re-stamping cases once they confirmed what the serials were supposed to be.

 

Scammers will always scam. I did not realize that was happening.

Classiche has a place for certain cars. Definitely not for everyone or every car, but I do not agree with Targatime. Cost was reasonable. Book is lovely. Definitely prefer the quality of the pics in the older books, as the digital photos are a lesser quality in the new format.

And the main reason for me, was a Ferrari signature. Porsche COA cannot offer that in like kind.

I think in 10 years, my Classiche 5800 mile car will have added providence and value. The one of one GTB may go down that path too. For now, it is my driver - eventually

 

@Targatime has a point. Ferrari Classiche certification is essentially a Porsche COA with an added signature verifying that the car meets factory specifications (serials, wheels, tires, suspension, brakes etc.) as it originally left the production line. It does not indicate that the car is an untouched or flawless example. Classiche certification often doesn't significantly impact value, especially for blue-chip models purchased by those who understand what Classiche does and doesn’t mean. The program even allows for color changes to be certified now, and the cost varies wildly depending on the specific model and dealer conducting the inspection. Classiche certainly doesn’t add real provenance like a Massini report that details the known history of the car from day one and comments on the originality. It’s just checking a very expensive box, and getting a nice book in return. All this not to say it doesn’t have a purpose, particularly for vintage or special cars, but it’s not like a stamp of approval stating the car is perfect.

 

Massini report is one thing for vintage - pre 80’s in my opinion. And that is a big part of that “crowd” of cars. Classiche is a fancy book. It is different than a COA, as the COA is a reference to internal computer history for production. With Classiche, there is fluff, but it does photo document the entirety of the car confirming known production data - yes, Maranello is short on that data - but it does validate as delivered and without alteration to those components. I say that is better than COA (?). As to history of car, with modern information, the records and receipts, the CARFAX, etc provides info that was harder to digitize in the past. No one posses a crystal ball or Time Machine. Massini does the best at “certifying” what they find and having the decades of valid market data to stand behind his/their findings and yes, a Massini file is the best arbiters of that Ferrari Data, unless Classiche levels up a notch or 3. But when you walk up on a car, inspect the car, view the records, see the “red book” and validate the data provided, you determine your own providence - always. Most people have a certain amount of doubt, even on the best of cars and that doubt is healthy when determining value.

We here represent a small portion of the owners and buyers of any Ferrari - at least those that participate regularly. Ferrari Chat is the best source info for a car in my opinion though and the community does a fine job for the brand. I admit to going way too hard or too deep into 355 ownership. It is fortunately or unfortunately a big part of my portfolio. In this moment in time, it seems to be a poor choice for now. Let’s hope enough of you guys that want the values to stay soft lose, LOL. We all know cars are a terrible investment. Terrible! But I am sure all of us have an investment, hobby, lust or vice that is just as terrible

 

Fair. It's a COA with added verification that the car actually is what it's supposed to be. Nothing more. It's a lot of Ferrari marketing.

Porsche also offers a Classic Technical Certificate now. Same thing as Classiche where the car has to go to a dealer and they take photos and confirm everything matches. The book they give you is not as nice...but it costs a grand total of $500 at every Porsche Classic Certified dealer.

I don't know how much Boardwalk charged you, but my local dealer wanted $7000.

I see it as a box to check for supercars and uber-collectibles, not a major value-add.

 

Has this car been discussed ?
Any reason it hasn’t sold, other than the price ?

https://speedartmotorsports.com/collection/1996-ferrari-f355-berlinetta-sold-%F0%9F%8F%81/