430 F430 vs 458 for first Ferrari?

for a DCT rebuild how often does this need to happen? I assume it's a combination of both mileage and driving style? So one could potentially see a clutch last over 80,000 miles if they drive it with conservation in mind but someone abusing the hell out of it will only see 40,000 miles before needing a rebuild?

Keeping an eye on the 458 market, right now a very low mileage clean 430 is only about 10-20k cheaper than a higher mileage lower option 458, but i think i dont quite know where the "break points" are with each model and so sure maybe i get a 458 for 170k but in 5k miles i'd need to rebuild the DCT and who knows what else? Or is a DCT rebuild and other of these big money items something that most owners never experience?

 

DCT rebuilt is over 20k dollars from what I read. The higher mileage the car, the higher the probability it will need it; I remember reading on the 458 board about cars as low as under 30k with DCT problems. A clutch job on F430 is ... under 6k parts included. And that clutch (assuming F1) might last another 30k miles. If gated, might never need changing.

 

is there anyway to tell how much life a DCT or F1 clutch might have? Is this something a reputable shop or dealership would be able to determine?

 

DCT does not have a clutch life/wear... it just fails. The F430 clutch wear can be read with a simple AP2000 OBD2 dongle , Thinkdiag, etc. which you can buy for 50 - 100 bucks or so on Amazon, or any dealer can read.

 

oof thats rough. So basically best bet would be to make sure i get proper documentation and maybe during a PPI see if the car has been driven hard/tracked during its life. And then just hope for the best. The 430 does seem like the more "practical" option in terms of maintenance cost with things being more easily DIY'ed and cheaper.

 

This is the thread that put me off upgrading to a 458... and then converting mine to manual

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-458-transmission-failure.672173/page-5

 

Ooof yeah that is a scary thread for sure. 70k for a whole transmission rebuild is honestly a bit nuts. It is making me rethink it a bit, especially as it does seem like its time rather than miles that really degrades the seals. So it would be in my best interest to buy a 458 that has already had a rebuild done it seems like. That being said it also sounds like a lot of this might be due to the car just sitting around and not being driven. One thing that has surprised me a bit is how much more the 488 seems to be driven vs the 458. The average mileage i have been seeing for 458's has been between 10-20k miles, vs a 488 which is many years newer ar hovering around the 30k mile point for used examples. Maybe people are realizing that they can drive these around more than before or something, no idea. But a 488 selling for 200k will have close to 40k miles but an equivalent 458 will have around 10k miles and more options.

I'm sure the DCT rebuild thing is a bit overblown and i'm sure there are hundreds of owners out there experiencing no issues. But i do admit, even if theres a chance i buy a good one, and there are no issues. If i do unfortunately buy one that does have issues, this is A LOT of money that might need to be spent. Which i guess proves to me that needing to have essentially the cost of the car saved as cash on the side for the car is the best decision if i want to make this purchase.

 

The DCT is the big ticket item but there are plenty of smaller issues that can hit the 430. Right now my friend has had the immobiliser fail in his car and it's been off the road for weeks. The dash cluster also fails eventually. Both cars will eventually have sticky buttons, but it is far worse in the 458. Roughly 5k vs 1k to fix.

 

If you guys were to buy a 430 right now, would you go with something low mileage like under 10k, or would you buy something thats actually been driven in the past 20 years? I think we always like to believe that low mileage is preferred, but at the same time a garage queen might actually have more problems because the car is just sitting there for weeks on end with the fluids just settling and degrading very specific parts of the inside of the engine (or so i assume). I think as of right now i think i'm leaning towards the 430 as my first Ferrari purchase. While the 458 is very very very attractive to me for a variety of reasons. Small relatively inexpensive fixes are something i'm more willing to deal with vs one big expensive fix like the DCT. I was very hands on DIY with my first S2000 and its those small fixes that taught me about the car and allowed me to grow to love the car even more than i first did. While the fear of a DCT rebuild is just that...a fear, and by talking about it we are basically in an echo chamber for that specific issue (same thing happened on the Porsche forums with the strut tower failure on 981 GT4),i am curious how many owners have actually needed to do a DCT rebuild in the time that they owned the car. If i buy a 458 that has already had the rebuild done, then i assume i basically dont have to worry about it anymore until another 10ish years or so have passed.

 

You want something that’s driven and sorted. These cars don’t like to sit and those that do tend to have more problems.

 

You will never know how the rebuild was done or what .... the only safe bet would be a very low mileage car or a new gearbox as replacement.

I would buy my F430 on condition, not really on very low mileage. Sitting for too long can deteriorate the rubber seals in the oil and water pump, etc. It will leak for sure.
Something like a 15-25k miles is a good number, driven at least 1k miles per year. If the clutch is worn I would not shy away, just cater that expense into the price. I'd rather do my own new clutch and replace everything on the way (engine mounts, etc) than take a bet it was done properly.
Knowing what I know now, as long as engine and transmission is good and interior/paint is nice, I would find the cheapest F430 with rattles and suspension issues, and fix it myself. They are easy to work on, much more so than say a BMW. Even diagnosing F1 issues is not so bad, and you have a ton of help on these forums.

 

thats kind of the vibe ive been getting. So in this case a 20k mile 430 or even 458 would be more ideal than a 5k car just because it hasnt just been sitting there collecting god knows what everywhere.

 

Yes. Also, anything that might break has a potential of already being replaced with a better item. 30k miles is perfectly acceptable

 

I would buy this without any hesitations; clutch replaced at 12k miles, looks great.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicle/726249509?allListingType=all-cars&city=Newton&makeCode=FER&modelCode=F430&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fall-cars%2Fcoupe%2Fferrari%2Ff430%2Fnewton-ma%3FsearchRadius%3D0%26zip%3D02458&searchRadius=0&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&state=MA&vehicleStyleCode=COUPE&zip=02458&clickType=listing

 

FANTASTIC price too. Wow. If that were red or black i might be making an enquiry right now haha.

 

Was talking to my friend at work who owns a 458. He just had to do a whole rebuild. he added on a bunch of other stuff to basically make the car be like new when all said and done, but he is spending a total of about 30k for parts and labor. Located in TX. Depending on how a similar rebuild would cost here in CA, it might be cheaper to ship the car out to get it fixed, but 30k for a bunch of other stuff included isnt too bad. I think the rebuild itself is about 17k if thats the only thing you are doing. With that in mind, a 180k 458 with a 17k rebuild puts the total cost to be around 200k which i actually think isnt too bad and is around the price i was looking at. Now this is assuming i can get a 180k 458 when i'm ready to buy. But for now i think i'm going to do what someone else suggested earlier on. Get a 430, enjoy Ferrari ownership. Meantime keep saving up and when i'm ready to upgrade, sell the 430 for little to no loss and then upgrade to a 458. Hopefully if prices stay the way they are i can get into a 430 sometime next year and begin my Ferrari journey. Thanks everyone who decided to jump in on this thread. There was a TON of great information here and i learned a lot.

 

Good on you doing all this research. I am buying my cars with my heart, not with my brains... when I saw the yellow F430, I knew it had to be mine; darn be all the logistics, pricing, and everything else. And so I bought my Gt350R , my (second) M3, and everything else I owned.

 

Haha a lot of my car purchases have been heart buys. My first S2000 was that way, i already had a 2016 BRZ and a 2017 Fiesta ST in my garage but i just had to have that New Formula Red S2000. My G82 M4 was an impulse buy as well. Needed a car as my GT4 had just been bought back buy Porsche for being a lemon, saw it in Boston Green Metallic with a Tartufo interior and i had to have it. Sucks that the car itself was a pretty big letdown and almost immedietly put in an order for a 718 GTS 4.0. I'm trying to be more responsible (HAH as he says while looking to buy a Ferrari), and make a more informed decision this time around lol. We'll see how it goes. I might be checking out a 430 Spider this weekend...we'll see what happens.

 

I recommend having a conversation or two with a couple of specialists on the drawbacks of the DCT system if you lean towards that. First hand ownership experience from the forum is great but we're much smaller in number. Cultivating a relationship with a specialist for when something really bad happens is a very good thing IMO.

When I was in for routine service there were two DCT cars that were stuck in the shop as semi-permanent ornaments that needed either a) full transmission replacement as recommended by Ferrari or b) finding someone willing to tackle the job to open and replace the failed parts and do a partial rebuild.

Ferrari (at least at the time in 2022) treat these DCTs as sealed for life, replace when worn. The actual repairs on one of the transmissions was going to cost around 12K for seals, solenoids, and wear components which for a transmission is a relatively minor affair except for the additional cost but getting the parts were difficult because at the time Ferrari didn't sell them except as a complete unit.

I personally would never want to be in that situation but afterall I still own an F430 so parts supply is always going require more patience and effort in general and unlikely a quick trip to AZ, O'R, NAPA, etc to resolve.

Even with Jack's Transmissions here in Colorado who could do an assembly with a bit of coaxing and personal affiliation I wouldn't gamble on getting a DCT car with higher mileage unless you knew how it was driven or you already knew that it had been replaced at what mileage. With an F430 clutch you have a lot of options in the aftermarket parts channel in addition to manual conversion. Maybe that's improving with the DCTs but caveat emptor.

I'm going to check out that 458 transmission leak thread now and give thanks I choose the F1 system and the devil I know.

 

great advice but i think i lucked out on this end. The mechanic that i spent way too much money on, modding my BRZ back in the day is a 458 owner and his shop has a few ferrari specialists and so they can do all this work and i trust him with any car that i have. Had a really good and long conversation with him about Ferraris and 458 ownership. He confirmed a lot of what ive learned on here which was nice to hear, and reassured me of some fears i had about cost to fix and everything. Obv him being a trusted mechanic that isnt going to screw me on labor costs definitely helps the situation.

Of course now with his assurance that i'm not going to go bankrupt if my DCT needs a rebuild, i'm again strongly considering the 458. And of course with all of you saying that a higher mileage one is actually a better buy, it actually lowers the cost significantly. Which now throws the 458 within 30-40k of a low mileage pristine F430.

I also made this harder on myself by seeing that a McLaren 570S (my original goal) has gone down in price significantly since i last checked a decently low mileage one can be had for under 150k and might still carry a warranty. So now my choice is, Old Ferrari thats more mechanical thats aging slightly but still a stunner, newer Ferrari thats known for its reliability and is also the last NA V8, or a much newer McLaren which throws reliability out the window but i get a lot more creature comforts, newer tech and doors that open up lol. What a problem to have.

 

I feel your conundrum! I catch myself looking at Mac's as well, since they depreciate soo badly and they're so fun to drive. Very tempting, I just don't know that I could deal with all the gremlins? Crazy fun cars though!

 

yeah it probably actually wont be a consideration. I was looking around for independent shops who would be willing to service one and basically everyone said no or wouldnt respond. That basically tells me its more trouble than its worth and i'd rather not pay dealership prices.

 

Lots of great convo and knowledge shared here already, but wanted to point out a few other things that you should consider between the 458 and F430.
Ive had a 458 in the fam so to speak for 4 1/2 years now as my cuz/ best friend has it in the stable and ive spent countless trips and miles behind the wheel and in the passager seat and its a beast. Ive have my 430 for 1 1/2 years now.
Its very loud in the cockpit compared to the 430 and the dct is brutally fast. It has a much harsher ride overall and a day in the car and roadtrips of several hundred miles are much less comfortable and unforgiving. We take annual runs out east in the spring and fall and cover several hundred miles over the course of the day and he always complains by the end of the trip about the ride while I feel great coming out of the 430. As for driving dynamics, the F1 has an old skoot feeling shifting gears quite close to a true manual, where the dct snaps ure neck with its speed when you get on it. We both agree the overall ride is more harsh in the 458 as well. I just point these out to make sure you drive both and get a feel for the type of car each is vs your expectations as they are so different.
The 458 is amazing no doubt but you do give some livability vs the 430 which is the right balance of rawness amd italian luxury and can be a great cruiser. Of course it all depends on what type of driving you intend to do with it, and if its just for shows and point A to point A, then 458 cant be beat for the sound and beauty of the package. Where the 430 is loud and deep sounding, the 458 is much more high pitched and F1 like and makes much more of a statment when pulling up - not that the 430 isnt loud, its awesome and exactly what i was looking for, but 458 is alot louder both inside and out.
Finally the looks are miles apart, the 458 is the baby LaF modern design while the 430 is the baby Enzo - well atleast from the rear and much more classic ferrari design, again all preferences both are georgeous you cant go wrong.
Final point, stay away from the Mac if youre concerned with maintenence, they require their own tools that no exotic repair shops typically have so unless u know of an independent that specializes in them, you wont have many options for upkeep.

good luck!
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First of all, GORGEOUS F430. LOVE the blue exterior and brown(?) interior.
Second, thanks for all the advice. I'm not too worried about ride quality. I daily drove my S2000 with track mods for 2 years and i daily drove my GT4 for about a year so i'm quite used to harsh (and prefer it) rides.

Its been hard to find test drives. Theres only 2 458s at dealerships near me right now and both are on consignment so they wont let me test drive, and the only 430 in my area are at independent dealers who wont let me do test drives unless i'm already commited. I think i need to find local owners who will let me test drive their supercar lol. That being said the dealer near me is letting me test drive a 296 GTB this weekend and i'll also be checking out their 488 even thoughj i know neither are exactly what i'm looking for. But i figure i start somewhere.

But thanks for the advice and explanation. I really appreciate it.

 

Just drive both. That will probably make you decision for you. Also, if things like DCT rebuilds being expensive scare you, then a Ferrari may not be the best thing for you to buy. They are expensive cars to maintain really well, period.