308qv shift shaft seal replacement results

Which brand of seal did you use? I bought an updated seal from Verrell and have had no drips for two years. Might try him.

 

Can you confirm if they installed this type of seal? The "cup and lip" style? There was a plain O ring style for early 308's that comes with some shift shaft seal "Kits" and may have been used instead.
https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/308-group/308qv/outside-gearbox-controls/115372-308-328-mondial-shift-shaft-seal.html?srsltid=AfmBOor_0KlPoBBdOEbS2YGvewmdJ4laxtzYbIHCQJNZXle62jTqP55E

Some people will use 1000 grit sandpaper to remove any burr on the end of the shaft so when sliding the seal on the seal doesn't get nicked and damaged. The shaft itself could have some sort of wear and would be inspected carefully, and must be very clean and a bit of motor oil put on it before going through the seal.

But since two different shops are having a problem, maybe there is something else going on. Some wild card thoughts...

You may have something clogged with the crankcase blow by system. Too much internal engine pressure could blow past the oil sump to the gear oil sump and then leak at the gear box seal. Would have to be really badly clogged, so not likely but in old cars these things can happen eg. with rubber deteriorating inside the hoses, and these hoses may often still be the originals.
https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/308-quattrovalvole/014-blow-by-system

Or maybe the shift shaft bushing (#28) is worn and the shaft is twisting out of sorts while shifting movement distorts the seal? Would have to be worn so badly I would think you would notice other shift precision problems. Not likely, but this diagram gives you some idea of how your shift shaft is configured (#5 are your seals, there are two, one seals to the outside, the other seals inside between the oil sump and transmission sump).
https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/308-quattrovalvole/024-outside-gearbox-controls

 

Firstly, be 100% sure that the leak isn't from where the dipstick tube joins the union that is screwed into the engine. If you are absolutely sure that the leak is from the shift seals, replace the O rings with X rings.These have more sealing capacity than O rings and have proven to be a very long lasting substitute in this application.

 

Johnv10 had the answer to which seal to use - Verrell sells the superior X seal, his web site is Unobtainium Supply Co.—HOME

His parts catalog PDF file is here - Microsoft Word - UnobtainiumSupply Product List.doc
Look at page 20, for a QV is's Part# 115372-Q "Shift Shaft Seal, VITON™ Quattro, 1 pair – replaces square caseless seal #115372", $12.40 for the two seals!

Gordon

 

Not sure about suppliers in America. I'm in the UK.
Here's what you need ;
Viton 70 X Ring 19.99 X 5.33. Two are required.
Make sure that whoever fits them, or O rings, uses a 20mm tapered mandrel to open up the seals, to prevent the shift shaft from nipping them as it's pushed through.
Something like the attached.
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I can't speak to the X seals, but there is no reason why the regular proper seals, should not seal, unless the shaft is not smooth and or the seal was damaged when installing. I understand people use the X seals for a possible longer leak free life, not because the OEM seals don't work.

Having seals changed twice and leaking, is not what one would expect. If you change seals again, that shaft itself needs to be carefully inspected, regardless of the type of seal used.

But there is a good point mentioned, the leak could be elsewhere and dripping from the seal area. Your pictures show where the oil drip is visible, but that many not be the source of the oil.

That dip stick area is a prime suspect, it is an unusual design with a huge 27mm nut and has to come off (most people remove it, there is a way to do the seal with out removing it but not so common) to actually get the oil pan off when the seal is changed. Not so easy to access and tighten properly. Possible that nut just needs to be tightened.

I would push that rubber gator back and use a rag and clean everything up around that seal. You should also be able to see if it is the correct square type lipped seal vs a plain O ring. Also clean up around the dipstick, spray some brake cleaner. Put in some UV dye in the oil. Then drive and then take a look, with the UV dye and a UV light you might trace the leak definitively. Even a cam cover leak on the belt side of the engine, quite common, can dribble its way down there.

 

I can name a lot of well known shops that are idiots. Name recognition has nothing in common with competency. Donnie Calloway is well known too.

Beyond that lots of shops want to be empire builders and expand way beyond the availability of qualified help. Some of their work is good, some not.

I have worked on 308s professionally since they still had carbs and we own a 328. In all that time I have never felt an improvement was needed for the current seal design. The standard factory seal I installed 13 years ago in our 328 is still doing the job. The O ring seal was not great but TR's and Boxers have used them from the beginning and they have no issues. There are several reasons you can have a leak there besides the seal and if that is not addressed guess what?

In our garage there is one drip pan, it is under the Mercedes. TR and 328 dont need it.

 

Much cheaper to ship it to Texas.

 

I used the Unobtanium seal. It works well, no leaks in the 5 years since installing. Just note that it does make the shifter a little harder to operate because it grips on the shaft so tight. But this loosening back up after some driving and operating of the gear lever.

 

Factory seal works well too and does not impede shifting.

 

It's near impossible to get Unobtainium to ship anything now. He's way behind.

 

Still not sure what can be done incorrectly. Like any seal, if the sealing surface is scratched or pitted, or the seal is damaged putting the shaft through it while installing, that's all that could be missed and result in an unsuccessfull install. I did the job myself. It is not technically complicated, and other than a leaky dipstick that's all I can think that a less skilled or distracted tech might not get right.

I did have to redo a driveshaft seal, and everything looked good but it leaked. The driveshaft shaft sealing surface was the issue, even though it superficially looked fine. So it may just be that there was eg. some grit or wear on the old shift shaft, could be very fine abrasion, that prevents the proper seal. How many miles are on the car?

If you get it done again, have the shaft carefully inspected. A new shift shaft is about $750 (if still available) depending how much you are spending on all the labour, maybe getting a new shaft for the third go round would be a choice to consider.

 

If some idiot pried out washer 108247 to facilitate replacing the seal (and many do) thats doing it incorrectly.
If someone damaged the casting surface of the housing where the seal lives,thats doing it incorrectly.
If someone damages the seal itself during installation, thats doing it incorrectly.
If someone is over filling the transmission (I have seen that suggested here by several people as a service method) we know that leads to leakage. That would be doing it incorrectly
If someone neglected to regularly service the vapor separator or to check it for clogging or otherwise check on the transmission breather as a complete diagnosis of transmission leakage prior to seal replacement would be doing it incorrectly.

Those are just the ways I know and have experienced people screwing up the job. One thing I know about humans, the ways we can find to screw up are unlimited so it is not a complete list.

308 shift shaft seals are a problem, just like worn out pedal pads are a problem. They are not a chronic or unsolveable problem. They get old and the rubber gets hard and they leak. The seal gets replaced and they stop. It really is that easy. I just moved. The 328 sat in the same space for 10 years with no drip pan and there was no oil on the floor. I did no leak repairs in that 10 years.

 

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but I believe it is recommended to use fine grit sandpaper (1200-1600) to burnish the shaft where it passes through the seals, to remove any "shine" that may have been created there over time (shine = low spot) and even out the surface. That will help the seals keep even pressure on the shaft as it moves during shifting. It's possible some people skip this step and that what makes their new seal leak.

I will say that I think people overreact to some oil leaks on these cars. The reality is that the castings are not the best quality and the gasket/seal designs are extremely optimistic. I'll even go so far as to say some of Ferrari's engineering and decision making was not great. There are a lot of factors working against a leak free engine.

When I got a PPI on my 328 before purchase in 2021, they flagged a few oil leaks, including the forward shift shaft seal. Over the first couple months owning the car, I realized the leaks were so minor they would never amount to much ("weep" is a better description). This past October I opened up the transmission to check alignment of the shifting mechanisms and was on the lookout for signs of engine oil leaking into the trans. Based on records, the transmission oil was about 9 years old. I didn't spot any concerning signs of engine oil in the transmission or coming through the seal. I elected to skip replacing the shift shaft seals because that forward leak was minor and not worth the trouble. My luck, I'd be one of the morons who replaces the seal and notices no improvement.

 

Ferrari never had the cultural sense of failure if their cars leak a little and you can see it in the design. The Japanese have a very different view of that and spend considerable effort designing things so they can be very effectively sealed up. A Ferrari is just not a good car to own if you are obsessive about spots on the garage floor.